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floridabuilder2 (99.64)

S&P 500 builder valuations - one of four in my series. Only 3 LT buy recommendations

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February 19, 2008 – Comments (30) | RELATED TICKERS: PHM , CTX , KBH

Before you begin reading my valuations on this grouping of builders, I suggest you click on the link and read my thesis on public homebuilders and why buying them in the spring summer timeframe could result in a long term profitable hold.  There are almost no jokes in here, so if you need a laugh you will have to go back to some past blogs.      

This is part one of a four part series... the other three parts will consist of the asset light builders, the high risk high reward builders, and the unique builders.  Again, this is the five S&P 500 builders 

Here are some other thoughts on the drivers of builder stock price increases over the next 5 years (the year of occurence is noted)   

1)      Short covering '08-'09 

2)      Balance sheet fundamentals '08

3)      Premium to book vs. Discount to book '09

4)      YOY revenue growth '09-'13

5)      Earnings instead of losses '09-'13

6)      Consolidation in the industry '10-'13

7)      Accelerating earnings '12-'13

8)      P/E ratios around 9 and net after tax margins of 6% '12-'13

9)      Momentum investors (get the eff out)  '13

 

My long term target stock price is based on a builder stock trading at 9x earnings with a net after tax margin of 6%.  So the key to this analysis is top line revenue growth.  At the end of the day I don’t care how much a builder makes in 2008 or 2009.  Between short covering and analysts focusing on balance sheet and book value, earnings will be irrelevant.  In going through a couple decades of financial information on the builders, I feel that a 6% net after tax margin is conservative.

Obviously, there are a number of macro events that can affect builders more near term vs. long term.  Just remember, in 1998 oil traded as low as $12 a barrel and technology stocks were all the rage.  5 years later in 2003 which outperformed?  A lot of people would say well that was different…..  I don’t think so……  Rotation from one industry to the next occurs all the time.  Personally I am more of a momentum investor than a value investor buying stocks in out of favor industries.  However, I have a really good handle on the dynamics of the building industry and this would be a case where I can make an argument.  I plan on putting my money where my mouth is this spring or summer. 

 

The S&P 500 Builders (1st of 4 group valuations) CTX, DHI, LEN, PHM and KBH 

The S&P 500 builders are all land pigs.  We shall see who learned their lesson in the next up-cycle.  Each is focused on volume and market share.  Tsk tsk…. How about RONA or a higher net income percentage?  If you like to play it safe with your money and you want a value play with growth potential for the next 5 years, then park your money here.  From 1/3/2000 (start of upturn) to 7/28/2005 (peak bubble) the stock prices of these 5 companies increased from 559% to 842%.  The national single family permits went from an above average 1.2 million to an unsustainable 1.8m. 

 

My expectation is if you can catch close to the bottom (the buy in prices I give) in the spring summer you will see a 300% increase in stock price in 5 years.  Why?  Although the 00-05 was bubble stock price increases, we are starting from a very depressed level of national sales this spring summer.  My expectation is 500,000 single family permits (the lowest permitting activity since 1982 when we hit 400,000.  Top line revenue growth potential is a big driver of my thesis.  On average, the US should have around 1.0 million single family permits a year.    

 Word On The Street 

Word on the street is that the marching orders given by almost every builder is the same.  This is different than in the past when different builders had different tactics when it came to selling homes (e.g. protect margin vs. build backlog).  The national headquarters of the public builders are telling their field generals to sell at prices where gross margins equal SG&A (zero operating margin).  Additionally, some divisions are giving their sales people more freedom to fire sell homes.  This tells you the desperation out there to increase backlog during the spring selling season. 

 

In a healthy non-bubble spring selling season you would like to see 5-6 net sales a month per community to build backlog.  In the last quarter builders were getting on average 2 sales per month.  I suspect that builders will get 2-3 sales per month and thus spring selling season will be considered a disappointment.  None of my contacts sounds positive.  Remember, my contact list consists of ½ dozen national builders and I am asking for national trends.  So it’s not like I am just talking to some private guy in Tampa.  This is big macro picture.

 

I’ve been told that an S&P 500 builder has a one billion dollar portfolio on the street and the highest offer is around 33 cents on the dollar.  That leaves the question of whether or not the builder will fire sell for cash or choose not to pull down its pants.  All the dumb money bought land in 2006-2007; everyone is a lot smarter in 2008 and wants deeper discounts.  Hint, this top 5 builder has a low cash position so it is in a bad predicament.  If it were smart it would have been the first to unload land…. Obviously they weren’t smart. 

 

Additionally, another contact from a mid tier builder said that corporate is asking each division to come up with a portfolio of land to be included in a national portfolio of land to sell.  This land will then be sold to a 3rd party.  Basically, similar to the deal above and the deals we have seen in the past.  My contact laughed that they were putting their dog $hit in this deal and every other division probably was too.  Why?  Because why would you put in your community positions that are actually generating sales?  That would be stupid.  The take away here is that when you see these huge land sales at 40 cents of book, this is impaired book.  The sales price was probably 25-30 cents of non-impaired book value.  The majority of the land in these big land sales is normally worthless C property.  Sure there are B’s in there, but the equity players buying these large portfolios for the most part don’t know how to value land. 

   

 PHM 

Wow, I never thought I would say that PHM was a top stock to buy.  PHM was one of the biggest land pigs during the go go years.  A bigger future driver of PHM’s earnings will be the Del Webb 55+ product.  The key is that in a new Del Webb community all the costs are up front in the amenity center and the big cash generation is back ended.  PHM has opened a lot of Del Webb’s the last few years, so 5 years from now they should be much better cash cows.  Additionally, in talking with people in the industry I would suspect that in a consolidation period PHM would be acquired vs. the acquirer. 

 Key thoughts

I estimate Pulte will deliver 23,500 homes for the year ending 12/2008.  This is a 47% reduction in closings from the 2005 peak.  Pulte has done an incredible job of keeping backlog strong and it is happening as a result of their Del Webb unit. 

 

Pulte’s gross margin before impairments is 11.6% and their SG&A is 8.9%.  So they are generating operating profit even with these awful gross margin numbers.  This is important…….. generating an operating profit and having a large backlog during what one could consider the worst quarter ever for builders. 

 

A cash position of $4.20 per share should allow them to expand revenues more quickly vs. other builders.  My expectation is that they have $9.00 in cash by the end of the year.  Cash IS the key ingredient in expanding top line revenue growth. 

 

PHM has more owned lots than anyone in the industry.  A lot of this can be attributed to the big Del Webb land plays.  Hopefully, PHM was aggressive in writing down their raw land positions, helping to drive earnings down the road in the big master planned communities.  Normally I am against large land positions, but in the case of Del Webb I am ok with it.   

 

The PHM footprint of profits in the past came from CA, FL, AZ and NV in that order

 

Buy In price from $9 to $10.   

Peak price 7/28/05 was $47.92 with a p/e of 8.91

2008 normalized earnings stock value is $16.05

5 year price target $37 (311% return on $9 buy in)

5 year revenue growth projection 15-20% annually

  KBH 

I estimate that KB Homes will generate 19,000 closings for the year ending 11/2008.  This is a 41% reduction in closings from 2006, since KBH was one of the rare builders that closed more homes in 2006 vs. the 2005 peak. 

 

KBH had gross margins before impairments of 10.1% and SG&A of 11%.  The gross margin before impairments number is awful.  I mean real awful.  It is obvious that KBH has been fire selling to turn finished lots into cash.  Such a poor gross margin means either above average write offs in 2008 or poorer land positions thus requiring heavier discounting.  I will say that in Florida I consider PHM to have better land positions than KBH which isn’t saying much.

 

KBH’s saving grace is $17.20 a share in cash.  This is going to allow them to expand top line revenue quickly and enter into the markets that have stabilized first.  Cash by itself generates no top line revenue.  Building up cash for the inevitable market turnaround then using cash to acquire or expand will generate above average revenue growth and thus earnings growth. 

 

KBH has the highest leverage and the lowest lot count of the S&P 500 builders.  I like leverage when there is no jeopardy of bankruptcy and I like the flexibility of less owned land.   

 

The KBH footprint of profits will come from CA, NV, FL and AZ in that order

 Buy In price is $17.50

Peak price 7/20/05 was $84.40 with a p/e of 8.32

2008 normalized earnings stock value is $34.77 

5 year price target $86.00 (391% return on $17.50 buy in)

5 year revenue growth projection 20% annually

   LEN 

I estimate Lennar closes 12,000 homes for the year ending 11/2008.  This is a 76% reduction in closings from the 2005 peak.  Now you know why I talk about top line revenue growth given the total collapse of volume in 2008. 

 

Lennar’s gross margin before impairments is 14.3% and their SG&A is 16.9%.  This is terrible, a negative 2.6% operating margin!  I have no idea why Lennar isn’t fire selling homes at a lower gross margin to build up backlog.  Lennar has a backlog of 5 per selling effort whereas the other S&P 500 builders PHM, KBH, DHI, and CTX have backlogs per selling effort of 12, 15, 10 and 13.  I believe one of the reasons why Lennar’s SG&A is so high is the fact that they have too many selling efforts (overhead).  There is no excuse for an SG&A number this high…. None! 

 

Lennar has $4.10 per share of cash which is respectable.  However, if they can’t even generate sales through their current positions what is the point of buying more land or another builder for top line revenue growth.  These idiots have a lot of work to do to right size their ship.  However, they are not going bankrupt.

 

One of the things I do not like about Lennar is all the JV deals they have in play.  Although I have not deep dived all of their JV deals, I consider it a major negative.

 

At this point in time I cannot recommend LEN and I feel there are better opportunities out there from a technical bounce standpoint or a fundamental buy and hold

 

The LEN footprint of profits came from CA and FL in that order

  CTX 

I estimate Centex will close 25,500 homes for the year ended 3/2009.  This is a 35% reduction in closings from the 2005 peak.

 

Centex’s gross margin before impairments is 12.5% and their SG&A is 14.1%.  Again, I am not a big fan of negative operating margins especially when they are a result of high SG&A costs.  The CTX philosophy appears to revolve around getting 3 net signups per selling effort each month.  CTX had more orders than any other builder in the most recent quarter. 

 

CTX has only 50 cents per share of cash which is horrible.  A top 5 builder such as CTX should have significantly more cash especially since I believe they were able to sell off the commercial component of their business.  CTX also has the highest debt level of the top 5 builders which wouldn’t be a concern if they had cash, but they don’t have cash.  Their debt to equity stands at 53% and the days of ginning money through land sales are over. 

 

CTX has the largest backlog of any builder and they have made statements that they would generate a lot of cash come 3/2008 which is their year end. 

 

The CTX footprint of profits came from CA, FL and AZ in that order

 

Buy In price from $18 to $19.   

Peak price 7/20/05 was $79.50 with a p/e of 8.19

2008 normalized earnings stock value is $30.24

5 year price target $61 (238% return on $18 buy in)

5 year revenue growth projection 15% annually

  DHI 

I estimate DHI will close 24,000 homes for the year ended 9/2008.  This is a 55% reduction in closings from the 2005 peak.

 

DHI had gross margins before impairments of 14.3% and SG&A costs of 13.3%.  Thus, they generated positive operating margins this last quarter. 

DHI has only 30 cents per share of cash which sucks.  They also have the highest inventory value on their balance sheet of $8.5 billion and 143,000 lots owned.  Given their current debt to equity of 40% they have the ability to take some big write offs or do some big land sales.  However, like PHM……  DHI appears to be content with not selling their land at 30 cents on the dollar.  It will be interesting to see if the DHI / PHM strategy of keeping land and writing it down is more successful than the KBH / LEN strategy of getting as much land off the books as possible.

 

The DHI footprint of profits came from CA, AZ and FL in that order.  Note that none of the big 5 generated a substantial amount of profits from their Texas operations even though TX generates a lot of sales.  Margins in TX are always lower than a lot of the other big permitting states and this has to do with easy entitlements. 

 

At this point in time I cannot recommend DHI.  I feel that they are going to struggle on the profitability side based on their abysmal average selling price and product mix.  I also think that DHI is too heavily weighted in TX which is a losing proposition.  TX is a pure volume state and it shows that DHI is more concerned with being the biggest and not necessarily the most profitable S&P 500 builder

   

30 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On February 19, 2008 at 3:09 PM, GS751 (28.78) wrote:

Interesting take between what you say and what the news says lol.

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#2) On February 19, 2008 at 3:14 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

what does the news say?

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#3) On February 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM, saunafool (97.76) wrote:

Thanks FB. I'll go press the rec button now.

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#4) On February 19, 2008 at 4:19 PM, DemonDoug (99.85) wrote:

KBH is the only builder I would come close to trusting with a long-side investment.

Just for kicks, I'm going to see if I can find a Pulte development near me and go in for a tour, see what the experience is as a buyer.  Just for you florida, I'll be like a mystery shopper. :)

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#5) On February 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

make sure you ask for a discount demon....... 

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#6) On February 19, 2008 at 5:23 PM, dude59 (98.55) wrote:

How do you feel about the prices of mortgages going up? The average mortgage interest rate is up by 1/4% this month.

I think you are being optimistic, but if interest rates stay where they are, I feel the situation should reasonably match your prediction.

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#7) On February 19, 2008 at 5:42 PM, cabuilderboy (35.72) wrote:

How much longer can the age restricted developments really play? With Shea's Trilogy, Khov's Four Seasons, and Mertitage's entry, just to name a few, I am concerned that long-term ATM machine for Del Webb may start to strain under the pressure. As all prices have declined, the price and amentity advantage those communities once held, may be more of a challenge. I have seen all the baby-boomer demographic studies, but at the end of the day, most of those 55+ plus buyers have to sell a home, before they can buy in. Just wondering if those communities will continue to be as successful in the future?

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#8) On February 19, 2008 at 5:43 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

dude59....  do you know what mortgage rates were in the 80s?  Plus people had to bring 20% down pretty much... and the US still cranked out 800k to 1.1m homes every year.......

also, when i talk top line revenue growth consider this...  I'm predicting PHM does 23,500 single family homes....  most professionals predict 700k homes this year, but I think we go as low as 500k...  so PHM has 4.7% marketshare in the 2nd lowest permitting activity since 1981....  PHM can gain top line growth through acquisition, gaining market share from privates, a rebound in national permitting activity to a normalized level, and selling price increases (that last one I wouldn't count on)..........  my point is this isn't an industry where you have to get top line growth by gaining market share from another public... with 4.7% market share there are a lot of avenues for top line revenue growth

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#9) On February 19, 2008 at 5:47 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

cabuilderboy.... personally I never liked the del webb model because it was such a loser from an IRR standpoint... however, in PHMs case I don't see them opening too many more selling efforts for del webb and 5 years from now it should be a pretty big winner....  i would never live in one of those communities, but there are a lot of people who will.... as far as selling the other home, i believe most people that are over 55 have lived in their home for decades unlike today's buyers in their 20s to 40s... so when your cost basis is 1980, I think many will sell for whatever the market bears vs. someone who is under water on equity

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#10) On February 19, 2008 at 8:47 PM, DemonDoug (99.85) wrote:

I think I'm nauseous... the only PHM development within a decent drive of me is a downtown... condo... development... ::puke::.. but I said I'd do it, so I'm penciling it in for sunday.

the only problem with your analysis florida is that it just doesn't take into account downside.  There are so many homes, that are so overvalued, that so few people can pay for, and so many companies are so leveraged (with a few rare exceptions you have indeed pointed out), I think 2008 will be worse for the HB's than 2007.  You talk about rotation from tech to oil and RE... well, the RE bust is now just finishing up it's first year.  My predictions for 2007 were spot on, and while don't I utilize shorting, you can see where I was right, and my one biggest bet from last year (Suncor) has rewarded me handsomely to this point.

To this point this year, it seems as the best investment would have been (and might still be) platinum.  A lot of the old real estate axioms just don't work anymore.  People are walking away from underwater mortgages (jingle mail), there is record inventory, and still nearer the top of housing unaffordability, not just in the bubble ares but in the supposed "non" bubble areas.  Not to mention, the investing world is finally turning against RE.  Last year, it was solely the mortgage originators that were limiting RE investment.  Now, investor sentiment is finally turning, and, what happens when you are holding an illiquid, depreciating asset, that is highly leveraged?  Max pain - which I just don't think you've accounted for, florida.  Until all these factors equalize, homebuilders and the entire REIC will continue to trend down, and when it equalizes, it will be flat for years, so there is no need to rush in right now.  Here is my proof, using historical evidence (yes i know history might not indicate future, but this follows my line of reasoning):

20 year chart of KB Homes 

Notice that between the middle of 1994 and 1997, when the RE market was flat to slightly down (at least here in CA), KBH was basically sitting in a valley.  I expect KBH along with many HB's to be volatile, but to trend down and eventually settle into their own little valleys- the ones that survive, anyway.

The point that I'm making is that you don't NEED to BUY BUY BUY this spring/summer if - nay, WHEN - housing stocks turn down again.  You can preserve your capital or invest it in things that are actually growing, like, say, canadian oil sands companies that will be increasing output over the next 4 years.  Or how about a water utility, or energy trust, as opposed to gambling on housing.

This being said, I will admit that florida is right, and has been on the right side of the momentum transactions he is playing.  So if you are a momentum trader, or a daytrader, go for it.  If you are more a LTBH kind of guy like me, I feel you'd be better off waiting at least another year, probably another 2-3 years, while the biggest bubble in the history of mankind unwinds.

p.s. what if the bond insurance thing doesn't get figured out, and what if the fed rate cuts have the opposite effect - by pushing mortgage rates upward?  what will that do to your projections then, florida?  The point I'm making is that while all RE is local, all mortgages are global (not just national, global).  You cannot seperate the macro from the micro in the case of the HB's. 

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#11) On February 19, 2008 at 9:27 PM, abitare (99.59) wrote:

I concur with DemonD again. Catching falling knives can cause a lot of pain. 

fb,

FYI- Toll Brother's Joe Rassman on www.bloomberg.com video 

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#12) On February 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, feebuilders (< 20) wrote:

What did Joel have to say? He has always been a straight shooter, I am curious what his thoughts are, he was actually one of my favorite people at Toll during my tenure there

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#13) On February 20, 2008 at 4:07 AM, SemperGumby77 (61.57) wrote:

This continues to be the most informative and respected blog on the web, no doubt. Great insight by Florida here and compelling feedback by DemonDoug. Thank you both for your thoughts and opinions. I'm probably going to be looking to buy a house in the Atlanta area later in the year, so I have been following your posts with great interest. You guys rock!

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#14) On February 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

demon doug what about diversity in your portfolio... surely your not loading up strictly in commodity plays?  there are those who think we are in a deflationary environment and those that say we are in an inflationary environment....  I think the jury is still out...  although I understand the arguments for both, I don't let them creep into my investing strategy... the thing with a long term buy and hold is that you can change your mind demon if you get a great entry level price and not take big losses..... prior to the run up in the 2000 plus range, public builders did not have huge market share... publics bought privates thus adding to top line revenue and that is the reason why their stocks took off..... did the bubble help... yes, but a significant portion of the builder stock run was also top line revenue growth through acquisition of privates...........  the public builders still only have maybe 20% of total market share

abitar............ explain how NVR made money in 2007 in the biggest housing debacle ever?  they are a builder........  except for mdc and mth hybrid models, all the other publics were land developers and builders...........  NVR is proof that you can make money in the worst of times by sticking to just a building model

sempergumby77....  I am going to send you an email of a great site to determine when to buy a house... it looks at local costs of housing

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#15) On February 20, 2008 at 10:06 AM, TDRH (99.98) wrote:

Beware, someone has taken floridabuilder hostage and is using his blog as a pump & dump!  (joke)

After seeing your analysis, and detail,  you know what you are doing.   The fact that others  think like you will lead to opportunities.  Still too much downside risk on the macro-level for me.

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#16) On February 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, SemperGumby77 (61.57) wrote:

thank you for the link, Florida. This will come in handy :)

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#17) On February 20, 2008 at 1:11 PM, SemperGumby77 (61.57) wrote:

So, in a seperate but related note, I'd give anything to know why MHO has spiked up so hard. This still looks like a stinker of a builder to me....

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#18) On February 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

tdrh.......... i'm in the dump mode right now but wall street isn't listening... demons arm resets argument will come into play this year... i've been sick with the flu the last few days, so caps isn't on my mind as much as gatorade

 

semper, mho sucks......... most of the buying is being done by value investors looking at stocks trading at a deep discount to book...  the only reason why to buy a builder is technical oversold or if you truly have a 5 year time horizon...  because a 1-2 year time horizon won't net you anything at these prices... that is why we have to get technical oversold again

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#19) On February 21, 2008 at 11:58 AM, bellard (96.05) wrote:

Yo FB;

Solid blog. Many bloggers are still confused on housing affordability. Like these comment:

"There are so many homes, that are so overvalued"

This is just incorrect. Stop thinking so simplistically. The metric to use is the monthly payment per sq. footage of home. With this metric home prices right now are much cheaper than in 1975. The reason is just simple math - historic low rates, historic high sq. footage for new homes, and the basic concept of inflation on wage and materials.....

I just created my economic blog today on my CAPS - It involves the housing industry, how we got here, and my future forecast.  Basically we have similar views - April/May 2008 looks like the best time to go long. I am averaging into a full equity position by May. I would like to get comments on the forecast.

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#20) On February 21, 2008 at 2:08 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

bellard........ as an economist you can appreciate the fact that anyone can take the same set of data points and draw two different conclusions...  I took a lot of statistics classes in college and what i learned was statistics lie...  it is very easy to manipulate data results by changing questions just the slightest or measuring data that excludes information that doesn't fit your cause...........

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#21) On February 21, 2008 at 3:10 PM, SemperGumby77 (61.57) wrote:

Hi Bellard,

I read your blog and posted a response there. One thing that strikes me about your "monthly payment per sq. footage of home" metric is that (while useful), this metrix doesn't account for 1) wages (ie. the ability the pay) 2)credit availability  3) The need for all that square footage.

Factors 1 & 2 will effect the short term demand and factor #3 may keep prices low for some time to come. The bottom line is that the baby boomers are retiring now and many are likely to downsize their dwellings. This will keep a lid on prices for a long time to come.  

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#22) On February 21, 2008 at 5:13 PM, bellard (96.05) wrote:

Semper;

 Sorry, i forgot to add comparison to the cost factors of affordability in my blog.

 

monthly payment per sq. footage of home VS some measure of income. So over time wages rise, so you can afford a higher monthly payment. Adjusting for sq. footage is not simple, but it can be done. Or you could just use 25% of gross income vs the monthly mort. payment. Now when you go back and compare to some prior period - 1975, or 1990, etc...You must adjust those older much smaller homes to todays sq foot levels......

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#23) On February 21, 2008 at 5:29 PM, abitare (99.59) wrote:

FB,

FYI -  

Ara Hovamain is on www.bloomberg.com video telling some "interesting" stories. That bright red nose make me think he might be "hitting the bottle". I can understand that....

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#24) On February 21, 2008 at 5:32 PM, abitare (99.59) wrote:

FB,

Ara drops the rumor of taking HOV private... since his family owns 40% 

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#25) On February 21, 2008 at 5:34 PM, joelbow7 (< 20) wrote:

I think there is one macro issue that is not being mentioned here: Inflation.  If the inflation numbers run up any higher (say 6 to 8 percent) from the current 4 percent the Fed might be forced to jack up interest rates from their current low levels.  I am not saying that this will happen right away but it is something to keep an eye on after the elections are over in early 2009.  Of course this would kill the builders just as they get ready to recover.

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#26) On February 21, 2008 at 5:46 PM, bellard (96.05) wrote:

Yo Joe;

Inflation is not good or bad. Inflation creates winners and losers. If most of the inflation is in wages and home prices - the HB will do better. If inflation is just in lumber, cement, and energy prices with wages down, then that would hurt the HB's. The fed's fear of inflation is a mistake imho. I believe inflation is actually a positive, as long as the MIX of inflation favors consumers disposable income(higher wages) and assets values. My biggest fear is deflation.

 

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#27) On February 21, 2008 at 8:56 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

abitar.......... if HOV was smart they would take the company private...........

joelbow............. one of the reasons why i ignore a lot of the macro bear data is that I look at stock investments in a short time horizon... so I need to see us moving towards a higher inflation rate rather than put that into my equation as it relates to homebuilders... the bears always throw out what ifs but I make my analysis on what is going on today... now if UE jumps or inflation jumps, then I'll give people a different take on builders it might be run for the hills....  but right now I think the market is going to go down as financials roll out more big write offs and that will provide a great entry price for the time being... as demon said, you don't have to buy my fundamentals, but you can buy my technicals knowing that you will get a bounce and knowing that when I say the builders at this point aren't going bankrupt (wci and ohb are the two closest) that you won't get a big negative suprise while holding a hov or spf

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#28) On February 22, 2008 at 5:16 PM, alstry (99.60) wrote:

What incentive do SPF's SENIOR lenders have to keep this ship floating, with all of SPF's subordinated debt, JV obligations, and land takedown requirments for 2008?

It will be interesting to see what SPF has to offer on March 30th and what they propose to offer their lenders to indicate that somehow the senior lenders can be put in a better position by continuing to pay executive compensation and JV remargin payments as 2008 progresses.

How long do you think Senior lender will want to watch a few hundred million per quarter fly out the door?

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#29) On February 24, 2008 at 1:43 AM, dwot (99.97) wrote:

My gosh, long post, lots of comments...

I have this sense, whether it is right or wrong, but the bigger the bubble or the more unaffordable, the longer it takes to really bring buyers back to the market to turn prices around again.

This a big bubble and people will know so many that got burned and I think that has a much longer psychologicial effect than realised.

I think FB is right about longer time owners having an easier time selling their home than owners who are under, however, at the same time, they have to see a place to go that is worthwhile. 

I think the main motivator for the over 55 crowd to move is going to be to free up equity, so they will have to see the ability to free up a relative amount of equity.  If they were thinking their home was going to be good for freeing up $100k of equity and they find it is likely to be only $50k, I think they would reconsider if that is enough to move when they probably have all kinds of family memories attached to the home. And maybe with the fees and moving costs cutting into the difference it becomes even less worthwhile.

 

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#30) On February 24, 2008 at 8:47 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.64) wrote:

alstry.....  SPF isn't an S&P 500 builder?

dwot.......  If I worry move up to a bigger more expensive house I would take my lumps on my current house... also, people living in the NE US in expensive housing can free up money and buy a bigger house in FL (outside of Naples and Miami area) for less money......  so there are always certain drivers that will exist

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