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floridabuilder2 (99.59)

Builder Alert - HOV earnings report - AAA rating (Ara's Awful Assets)........... Also, Why Banks Are Still Lending to Builders

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March 11, 2008 – Comments (41) | RELATED TICKERS: HOV

On March 9th (2 days ago) I put out my 3rd edition of the quarterly builder rankings....  I mentioned for the 1,000 time that shorting builders wasn't the best play... the real play is buying an ultrashort and I stated the following in Sunday's blog

I must warn you that ultra-shorts are timing mechanisms.  So I wouldn’t enter into them tomorrow after the market has just dropped around 800 points on the Dow.  Buy an ultrashort after you feel a rally has topped.

I hope you followed my advice from Sunday and didn't enter into a short position or bought an ultrashort yesterday (Monday)....  I rolled out of all my ultrashorts last week and started rolling into long positions....  this market is pretty easy to guess, do the opposite of the herd.

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In any event, one day after my quarterly rankings, HOV announced a brutal earnings, or should I say non-earnings report.  Now some people have questioned why I ranked HOV so high as a tier 1 sell........ its because I am trying to help you as an investor and I am breaking down builders into tranches of short term (3 month risk periods)......  HOV was in the second best tranche which was a tier 1 sell, so I wouldn't consider that an endorsement.... 

Go back to my previous 2 editions of quarterly builder rankings and I think you will find that each tranche of builders I ranked performed as expected.  The better tranches performed better overall.

So why am I saying Ara's awful assets (AAA)?  It is because Ara was the biggest buyer of other homebuilders during the peak........  most of the builders that were acquired were second tier builders........ Which built in... you guessed it, 2nd tier markets........  you don't want to own assets bought at the peak in second tier markets.... why.... here is why

FUTURE CASH OPPORTUNITIES

Monthly sales absorbtions dropped from 2.2 to 1.2..... that absolutely blows....... cram 10 hotdogs in your mouth....... that is how bad it blows.......  you see when the new housing market tanks, people don't buy in fringe developments

YOY orders down 38% and YOY new sales pricing down 8.7%........ everyone wants to know when we reach the bottom............  Today Floridabuilder is going to tell you when..........  When two back to back builders report YOY orders up, YOY sales pricing up and absorptions over 2 a month........  that is it............ two builders in a row need to do this.........  as you can see HOV isn't even close

Backlog dropped around 2,000 and went from 4.9 to 3.2 months........ well the one redeeming quality I gave HOV in my quarterly rankings was backlog.......... one day later that redeeming quality just disappeared.

Selling efforts dropped from 431 to 404........  this is something that I brought up several blogs ago........  that the builders are going to run into a quandry.........they are building on finished lots and monetizing them to cash.... positive cashflow........ however, these communities slowly get closed out one by one......... less selling efforts means less sales........ so at what point do you start developing land and opening sites....... negative cashflow...........  see my point........ HOV lost 6.2% of its selling efforts in one quarter..........

So from a future cashflow perspective............  I would say............... things look worse for HOV.........  However, are they still a tier 1 sell? 

Lets see how the other lower tier builders report............. make no mistake, this was a very bad earnings report..........

 

OTHER INDICATORS REGARDING HEALTH

Well if we are going to check your health the first thing we need to do, especially if you are an older male like Ara, is to give you a colonoscopy...... two fingers not one............

gross margins dropped to 6.7% as a result of the fort myers give away.......  i've railed in a lot of previous posts that treasure coast and fort myers area were the worst in the nation........... the gross margins in fort myers were in the 2% range............ and by the way, this is after HOV has impaired the land to almost nothing.......... 

HOV lost 100 million in equity and their debt to equity ticked up from 62% to 66%..... tick tick tick tick........ by the way there are still 5 builders with a higher debt to equity that haven't reported...........  told you HOV wasn't in the lowest tranche

The best part that was great to hear was HOV generated $1 a share in cash......  I mean that is what is going to help you turn things around........  I have been stating for a long time that cash is king and that.... oh wait what is this............. hmmmmmmmmmmmm...............  HOV tapped its revolving credit line by $100 million so actually they generated no cash, they just borrowed money from their creditor and put it into their bank account.............. where is fellow fool, Alstry!!!!!!!  I'm sure he has a rant about this.........

The creditors reduced HOV's borrowing capacity several 100 million to 900 million.......  The inability to pay down your revolver is not good......... all the better capitalized builders are paying their revolver to zero........ not tapping it and putting it into their bank account

So Alstry why did the banks allow HOV to do this?

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WHY THE BANKS ARE BENDING OVER

Alstry's posts on SPF and RYL are relentless... Even a Michael Vick pitbull gives up at some point.........  What Alstry and many of the bears are not getting is that the unwind process for developers and builders is somewhat orderly......... no taking cuts

Sometimes I wonder if you bears actually read my blog posts or if you are so gung ho about watching our economy tank into oblivion that you lose all rational sight...........

My blog posts are for the most part timely and they take a short term view of less than 3 months................  I could care less about the macro picture.............  I would hope that if you read my blog you are looking for some sort of investing advice and understanding of the industry......  I don't see how I would add any value if I stated....... "all builders suck and are going bankrupt".......... is that good advice?  I guess so if you are wondering if you should invest in builders and know nothing...

However, does that allow you to differentiate between the truly bad builders that are going bankrupt sooner than later and the ones that should do well long term?  NO........  the fact of the matter is most people don't have time to research every industry to the nth degree and maybe they want to put some risk capital into a homebuilder......... so they want a builder that won't go bankrupt and they want to know when is a good time to buy in..........

I am really getting tired of repeating myself on this EFFING point.......  75% of homebuilders are private and the majority of them are in worse shape than the publics........... period.......  Are you people not listening to me on this point?

The banks are so overwhelmed by the amount of non performing real estate assets and questionable loans that they can't see straight.....  they are not properly staffed and don't know what to do......  there are builders who are closing homes with 0% curtailment, yet their revolvers are maxed out.....  if that isn't a red flag for a bank being behind the 8 ball, I don't know what is.

Alstry in particular has mentioned that SPF is insolvent and points to land sales in Sacremento at 16 cents on the dollar as justification for the banks to pull credit.........  He also has a lot of other good points gleaned from the financial statements that are bearish....... however, he also cherry picks...............  I always try to provide a balanced argument.......  you know something that is in the meat of the bell curve and not 3 deviations from the norm..........

So lets walk down Alstry's path.........

First if a consortium of banks is going to pull credit on SPF, then you probably need to pull credit on the other 75% of builders with a worse financial position.... seriously, why would you pull credit on a builder knowing that 75% of the loans on your books are in worse shape....... what would happen if all the banks did this

basically 75% of the builders would go bankrupt immediately, flooding the market with newly unemployed in builders and related vendors....... is that what you want?  does that make you happy?  is this the type of capitulation you want?

then because all of these builders are heading into bankruptcy because they have no funding including DIP Financing, you are looking at chapter 7s instead of 11s...... so now all these builder and developer assets that made up 75% of new home production and development of land are going to go through a chapter 7 liquidation all at the same time in an environment where there is no liquidity for these type of assets....... you are looking at creditors getting 10 cents on the dollar........  Does that make sense for the banks to do?  If you were a bank CEO would you call up all the other bank CEOs and say "all these builders are insolvent on their balance sheet, we need to all stop waivers and pull credit immediately".......... you would be a bank CEO for one day

after every bank that just pulled credit on 75% of the builders and developers the next step is all the massive amounts of writedowns these banks would have to take, causing a number of them to become insolvent themselves and go bankrupt.... Wow that is smart, call in all your loans so you can force yourself into bankruptcy....... 

Or is there a better solution.............. the banks, in contradiction to what the MF board bears want could do this

When the worst performing builder/developer can't pay off interest let alone principal and the builder shuts his operation down himself.........  then you move in and sell the assets in an orderly fashion at 40 cents on the dollar and you take the write-off......... slowly one builder/developer at a time in sequence starting with the worst builders and developers...... hopefully the economy can find a bottom to stop the bleeding while this is going on over the period of a couple years

The builders that want to survive and have shown any sign of life (e.g. positive cashflow, large cash position, reducing headcount, right sizing, etc...) are going to continue getting soft glove treatment from the banks....  it is in the banks interest and the builders interest and our countries interest.... 

the banks chance of getting all their money back or getting a higher percent of their outstanding loan back are better if the process is orderly and they work with the builders and developers.......

This is why I say no taking cuts....... because the process of going bankrupt will be orderly and I've heard enough through my partner about what the trigger points are with banks and which banks are playing hardball and which aren't and why...........  all of this information gets put into my blog post indirectly as a part of my overall analysis......... 

how many people would read my blog if there wasn't some semblance of accuracy in my builder performance calls or my analysis of what is going on in the industry?

Again, if you are an investor and you want to know what is going on today, the outlook for the next 3 months and want builders ranked in tranches with some techincal buy and sell points you came to the right place.......

If you watch sports what do the best coaches always say.................. one play at a time.........  that is how I blog and will continue to blog...........  if the economy or homebuilding gets worse or better, then I will make slow adjustments to my analysis of the industry...........  One play at a time

Sorry I used you as an example Alstry, but given that you have 82 blog posts mainly on RYL and SPF, it was difficult for me to come up with another determined bear off the top of my head.......... 

that is not to say Alstry or the bears are wrong........  I just choose a different path on how I analyze builders and the industry

41 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On March 11, 2008 at 11:28 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

lordz...........  nope neither mad investor or contractor......... just reporting my thoughts on builders and helping people differentiate and understand what is going on behind the scenes........

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#2) On March 12, 2008 at 12:09 AM, LordZ wrote:

Wow long post, read some of it, but as i'm not really into buying any type of building stock, I think I'm good...

Wondering are you a pissed off investor or a contractor who didnt get paid ???

Bears suck, never ask a bear for an opinion LOL. they'll usually point to some chart.

I doubt anyone will be shorting anything for the rest of the week.

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#3) On March 12, 2008 at 1:11 AM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

Florida,

By far your best post ever from my perspective.  That said, I find most of your posts very insightful and an excellent resource.  You are by far one of the most valued CAPs players.

As far as a focus on RYL and SPF, you can add CTX for now, I am sure there will be others soon.  VERY SOON.  Those are the three that I currently see the most RELATIVELY overvalued.

Since this is a game for points.  Those are three that I think will give CAPS players the most points.  I am all about giving.

As far as banking behavior, I think you are going to see some big changes very soon.  It is already happening. 

Overbuilding by builders is a major contributing factor to declining home values.  Especially in those areas where builders congregate.  Declining home values is costing America and banks Trillions, not simply billions.  The debt banks have out to mortgages relative builders is like comparing a Irish Wolf Hound to a Shitzu. 

At some point, you simply have to get rid of the Shitzu.  If the banks want to protect themselves and trillions of dollars of American wealth, their only option right now is to stop builders from overbuilding.  As you have admitted, those builders in desperate financial shape must build specs.  The only way desperate buliders can build specs is with bank assistance. 

No public builder has more specs under construction relative to backlog than SPF.  Why?  To destroy the values of homes around SPF's specs so mgt can stuff millions of shareholder and bank money in their pockets?  To paraphrase the Gladiator said, the days of builder execs honoring themselves is coming to an end.

My friend, the problem that is perculating is far bigger than your limited three month perspective.  The Mortgage crisis has become so severe that the Fed today expanded the TAF to $200 Billion in mortgages.  In one swap auction, the Fed just expanded the crisis to the size of the S&L debacle.  And AAA mortgages have not yet been downgraded.  Can we count to over a Trillion?

Do you really think the banks care about what happens to the value of a few spec homes.  Banks are fighting for their life right now and are becoming more concerned protecting trillions of dollars of existing home assets. The bank behavior of the last few years reminded me of the Pro Life fanantics who don't seem to care about the living, you know, the pro war types who don;t really understand the conflict and would never send their own kids into battle(Candidly, I myself am pro life so long as I am not involved or the one pregnant). 

If you had to pick between saving the Irish Wolf Hound or the Shitzu, which would you pick?

Again, excellent post.

 

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#4) On March 12, 2008 at 1:31 AM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

Sorry,

I just couldn't  leave this one alone:

I could care less about the macro picture.............  I would hope that if you read my blog you are looking for some sort of investing advice and understanding of the industry......  I don't see how I would add any value if I stated....... "all builders suck and are going bankrupt".......... is that good advice? 

FIRST OF ALL, YOUR JUST YOU BLOG ON CAPS ADDS TREMENDOUS VALUE TO MANY OF US.

That said, if all builders did suck and were going bankrupt, it would add tremendous value.  Think how much money we could make.....sorta just like the airlines a few years ago.  Not only would it be good advice, it would be extraordinary advice leaving any recipient who benefitted from your advice very greatful.  Again, paraphrasing the Gladiator, your actions on earth would echo in eternity.

As far as the macro picture, 99.99% of the time I would say your are right.  If you went to the beach with your wife and kids, scoped out the ideal location (preferably near a bunch of coeds and you wearing dark sunglasses), put on the appropriate amount of sunscreen on the children, popped up the umbrella with adaquate liquids in the cooler, dressed them in fashionable swimsuits with approprite lifesaving gear, and carefully watched them so they didn't wander beyond safe behavior, 99.999 out of a 100 times it would be a great day.

However, if you really believed a tsunami was coming, what would be the value from all of your preperation on the beach?

Some of us bears really believe this time is very very different.  The Fed sure seems to be scared and so do a bunch of bankers I know.

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#5) On March 12, 2008 at 1:42 AM, collinmcb2 (95.22) wrote:

If HOV's report was that bad, why did it rebound today?  Do people not know what to look for or are they misinterpreting numbers?  Oh by the way, excellent post, as always.  The first thing I do whenever I log onto caps is check for a new post from you, highlight of my day.

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#6) On March 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, cluelessmorgan (99.13) wrote:

"Sometimes I wonder if you bears actually read my blog posts or if you are so gung ho about watching our economy tank into oblivion that you lose all rational sight..........."

well said.  There are some nasty and extremely odd things happening, but it seems like a lot of people WANT it to  happen. So, again, well said.

I mentioned on my last blog that an aquaintance of mine who is an assessor is back to work last week as the foreclosure freeze was lifted (this is in IL).  Then right after the freeze is lifted we get this trade your crap for treasuries deal.  Not to be paranoid, but it seems kind of planned to me.  ITs like the valve is being opened and closed to control the damage so it isn't one big smackaroo.

Anyway, I'll be talking to  my assessor aquaintence in the morning and see what info I can get out of him and blog it.  Just to have an assessors point of view is interesting to me.    And seriously, when March foreclosures hit, the bear will be back.  Hopefully the low won't be as low, but we'll see. Don't know what helicopter Ben will do but I'm curious.  I'm glad I closed some of my picks recently like RYL.  WCI is going to kick me hard I fear.  I just opened a short on it less than a week ago.  Bad timing, but who can tell when the government is suddenly going to throw in 200 BILLION dollars???

 

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#7) On March 12, 2008 at 2:51 AM, EScroogeJr (98.92) wrote:

FL, what's your take on industry consolidation? Do you see, say, 1/2 of your BK candidates getting acquired, or do you feel that private builders will make a better acquisition target? Any potential acquirers other than your top 4 and how soon do you expect this acquisition activity to start? 

 

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#8) On March 12, 2008 at 3:08 AM, howeme (< 20) wrote:

FB   Agree with Alstry, this is your best post    Love your writing style.  I have learned a ton. You are first on my list when checking CAPS.  Many thanks

 

 

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#9) On March 12, 2008 at 7:55 AM, xofruitcake (< 20) wrote:

"At some point, you simply have to get rid of the Shitzu.  If the banks want to protect themselves and trillions of dollars of American wealth, their only option right now is to stop builders from overbuilding."

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. Banks are not in the business of watching out the US wealth. They are only concern about their own balance sheet. Foreclosing a HB with significant loan is not a good thing for the bank now. Bank balance sheet are in general very tight becuase of all the write down they have to take on their mortgage holding. Pulling a HB to BK would force the bank to set up more reserve when they don't have any spare capital. Why would a bank shoot their own feet? You can look at WCI situation. Each time bank waive WCI convenants, they collect more fee. Essentially the money is coming out from the junior debt holder pocket.  Bank will continue to play along, shrinking revovler, collect fee and interest until they see the collateral is not enough to cover their loans. At the point, all the equity holders, preferred holders, and junior debt will loss out with the bank own and/or liquidate the business.   

 

 

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#10) On March 12, 2008 at 8:37 AM, devoish (99.59) wrote:

FB,

What surprises me the most is that you do not get more rec's than you do. From your very first post it was easy to see the depth of insight you have into the builders industry. In one of your first posts or the responses, you mentioned you had tried writing on yahoo and been met with posters who were insulting to you and your attempts to inform. It is to our benefit that you found your way over here.

Thanks for another great post,

Devoish

 

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#11) On March 12, 2008 at 8:40 AM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

alstry....... irish wolfhound or shitzu.....  i think i would take a NYC rat................  i do read and recommend your blog posts...  I just have a different take........  the banks need to shut down a lot of the privates first that are basically not even paying back their principle.....  i have been complaining about this forever..............  as far as SPF, CTX, etc...  my only point is that most people have access to public builder financials and i have access to distressed private builder and developer financials....  and I am saying that the banks need to start shutting these guys down in an orderly fashion... eventually if SPF doesn't get its crap together and the market doesn't bottom then they will move up the list..........

alstry...  ohh i know things are bad and yes I would love to see the banks take the knife to builders, because my exit strategy is to jump into a new operation / start up builder out of bankruptcy......  that said, as you can see on how i play caps, I mainly trade the volatility and my builder advice on caps really is aligned with that....  here are my thoughts about builders today.......  do i think the economy is in for a train wreck...  we shall see........  i try to stay out of the predictions business... i made a lot of predictions in the 80s and 90s about our economy and the world and most of them were wrong....  i'll stick with 3 month stock predictions

collin....... the market was up over 400 points the largest gain in 5 plus years  i believe... if you were a short would you cover?  if you were a day trader would this be the type of volatile stock you would buy into?  don't judge HOV by one days trade

cluelessmorgan........  you hit the nail on the head........  the govt is trying to prevent a total collapse...  based on my job of valuing deals and the total illiquidity of land... 75% of builders are insolvent........ what does that say about banks and other financial institutions.... that is why i am beating the drums of an orderly blood letting........ this is why there is so much deception on the monoline ratings, etc...

escrooge........ once we find bottom (i mentioned above in the blog when we find it) you are going to see some acquisitions and consolidation.........  this industry is going to look totally different down the road... that is why i love the companies with big cash because they are going to be able to move their chips quickly to the markets that recover first through acquisition of land, private builders or public builders............ the guys with no cash are stuck in the markets where they are at and will not be able to ramp up sales/earnings like the cash guys...... so the acquirers are going to be the cash guys and that will make them the growth guys

howe..... thanks.... as long as homebuilding is of interest to the community i will blog... if we ever get out of this mess, hopefully another industry blogger will talk about the new IN industry........

fruitcake. nice comments..... that is what i am seeing.......

devoish..........thanks.......  sometimes i miss the cretins on yahoo.... noooo...... maybe I don't..............

 

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#12) On March 12, 2008 at 9:32 AM, EverydayInvestor (100.00) wrote:

FB--your post of course reminds me of the old adage, "If I owe the bank $10,000, it's my problem. If I owe the bank $1 billion, it's the bank's problem."

You are of course right on banks not benefiting from pushing builders into BK. 

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#13) On March 12, 2008 at 9:51 AM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

FloridaB,

Keep up the great work.  We just have a fundemental difference in our approach.  Now that the Fed is taking a protective dollar  policy, there will be additional pressure on builders from rising rates.  If I had known what the Fed was going to do yesterday the day before, I would have shorted the market, not gone long.  That just goes to show you where my shortterm skills sit.

I am very aware of the problems of smaller builders and that many should be shut down.  Many will be shut down very soon.  You will have a ton of opportunities in that space down the road.  Who knows, maybe you will be competing against me.

In the mean time, as long as the Fed keep protecting the dollar in an effort to tighten the spread between the GSE paper and Treasuries, expect continued pressure on housing....at least for the next three month time frame.

Tomorrow and Friday could be very very interesting....we shall see. 

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#14) On March 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM, leohaas (99.09) wrote:

"I hope you followed my advice from Sunday and didn't enter into a short position or bought an ultrashort yesterday (Monday)....  I rolled out of all my ultrashorts last week and started rolling into long positions....  this market is pretty easy to guess, do the opposite of the herd."

Excellent point! Don't go short or ultrashort right after a huge drop. Wait until a huge move upward. That is the time to consider them... 

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#15) On March 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

everyday.......  i love that old adage..........

alstry.........  you should subscribe to big builder emails... they also have a link to blogs that talk about housing.. of course they are all negative blogs, but you can get some great info through that route... also, big builder is immediately on top of any news related to builders... its a great resource of push content and you'll have a lot more fuel for the fire, cause there is always a fire going on today in homebuilding

leohaas......  here we are on another rally and I am probably going to lock in one of my long positions with huge gains at the end of the day and slowly close them all... i don't see this rally as sustainable either....  the retrace bounce back was huge and fast...  now i have to figure what to bet against again once the financials start reporting i think next week

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#16) On March 12, 2008 at 11:20 AM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

FB,  I already read BBOnline, it is a great resource thanks.  Further I agree with CABuilder about the privates, a lot of their balance sheet is stuffed in their private accounts.  Further, a lot of their window sills is insulated with cash.

Do you think a public executive would ever take his personal money to capitalize his public company?  Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Right now JVs are blowing up accross the counrtry.  The last month has been incredible.  No body has more exposure to JV liability than LEN and SPF.  No one has less relative assets to deal with it than SPF....since of course TOUSA debacle last fall which you nailed.

Do you really think anyone will give these guys a dime when SPF has $700 million of JV RECOURSE obligations.  None of HOV's JV debt is recourse just for comparitive purposes.  As far as WCI, they are simply liquidating and not building much, they don't have to go back and beg for more money.....that last thing a lender wants to do in this environment is add extra chips into the pot.....especially for building risky unsold specs like SPF is doing.

The horses are heading into the back turn.

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#17) On March 12, 2008 at 11:58 AM, cabuilderboy (50.24) wrote:

After listening to Ara's conference call I was dissappointed with a couple of his answers or "lack" thereof. When asked about his average started and unsold, and standing inventory inventory in only boom/bust states (CA, AZ, FL), he simply said it was about the company's overall average of 4.2 units. Really, if it was about average, he would not have had a negative $55M cash flow for the quarter. He also kept stating the "Deal of the Century" in September cannabalized sales in this 1/31 quarter end. I am sure the sales decrease didn't have anything to do with the market (I wonder what excuse the other builders are going to use for lack of sales? Maybe, the flu?) He also made the claim that this 1/31 quarter end was normally a bad cash flow quarter. As you have pointed out, builders make hay in Oct-Dec from backlog, paying lenders and keeping everyone happy. To say this was normally a bad cash flow quarter was a bit misleading.

One point I have to make about your comments regarding privates. While there are badly managed privates, I think you may underestimate the staying power of many of these guys. I originally thought much like you, but working in one of the most challenged markets, I have seen many of these guys are still around (like me) and not going anywhere. Many privates, like many publics, made tons of money when times were good and can last much longer than they should. I agree many of them are undercapitalized by normal standards, but that may be a function of equity withdrawal when times were good, and if so, can choose to recontribute if needed. My point, many privates will compete aggressively and may not fall as easy as people may think. Thanks again.

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#18) On March 12, 2008 at 12:05 PM, leohaas (99.09) wrote:

"The builders that want to survive and have shown any sign of life (e.g. positive cashflow, large cash position, reducing headcount, right sizing, etc...) are going to continue getting soft glove treatment from the banks....  it is in the banks interest and the builders interest and our countries interest.... "

100% true, but the only reason the banks treat the builders the way they do is because it is in the banks interest. Period! 

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#19) On March 12, 2008 at 12:17 PM, hbshorty2008 (< 20) wrote:

FB, great post. I'm not sure it is your best post ever but it's up there. I appreciate your perspective. It helps keep my perspective from getting too bearish.

Based on your analysis, do you still see HOV as the second highest tier or would you move them down a notch to third tier? 

One quick thought that might throw a wrench in the orderly bk idea. If the small regional banks start failing, their hb loans would likely be called in by creditors whether the bank would have or not.

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#20) On March 12, 2008 at 12:24 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

alstry.... yes, spf has a lot of risk....... ive warned people on this high risk high reward.. treat it as a call option

cabuilder, problem with me is that i only get to see the builders who are in trouble......  the entities i deal with are going after distressed builders that do over 500 units a year......  so i agree with you that a lot of privates will continue business as usual, but the banks really need to cut off the guys who are obviously going nowhere... there needs to be some curtailment.... i really feel bad for the privates who have personal guarantees out there... now that really hurts

leohaas...... agreed

hbshorty.......... HOV is probably going to drop to the third tranche on my next round... but again, some of the guys lower than them have major league problems too....  at least HOV got a change in covenants and borrowing capacity... nevertheless they are heading down the wrong path.............  your last sentence is interesting....... i'm not sure of the process there, I need to talk to someone about that...........

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#21) On March 12, 2008 at 1:57 PM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse, but SPF is my horse and I am racing you, probably the most prolific HB CAPs player by far.

It is just a privelege to be running on the same track.  Right now you are leading by $1.4 lengths.  I have a lot of catching up to do.

In the mean time, something very interesting could be coming out in the next 48 Hours, hang on.

 

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#22) On March 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, dwot (99.98) wrote:

I am enjoying the contrast here...

 

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#23) On March 13, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Ferrari321 (97.26) wrote:

Great post as usual FB ... keep up the good stuff. Here is an interesting story about your favourite analyst from Reuters btw...

 The cost of calling the turn early can be high. Stephen Kim, a former  high-profile Citigroup Inc. (C) analyst, helped spark a sector rally last fall.  He bullishly upgraded builders including Centex Corp. (CTX) and Pulte Homes Inc.  (PHM) to buy from hold. Many readers interpreted his research note as calling a  bottom. When the downturn continued, he said he was wrong. 
    "My group was a very difficult group to cover and it was rife with risk - and  it still is," he said, adding he doesn't know if his premature bullish call had  anything to do with his being let go from Citi. Kim now covers global housing  stocks for Alpine Woods Capital Investors. 
 

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#24) On March 13, 2008 at 2:23 PM, LDahla (< 20) wrote:

I am confused, too.  Why is WCI stock going up???

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#25) On March 13, 2008 at 3:00 PM, klemenv (99.20) wrote:

Have you seen this, guys, Bloomberg reports, that there is 60% increase in foreclosures, and later in the day WCI is +15% and OHB +6%. Is Mr. Market behaving strangly, or I am missing something?

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#26) On March 13, 2008 at 3:40 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

alstry...... spf and wci.... they are off...

ferrari........  i wouldn't put any money into alpine woods investments

ldahla.......... everything is up today........  plus a lot of short covering and value investors........  it is what it is...... that's why i don't short stocks, but instead buy ultrashorts

klemenv........ ditto to my response above........ you can't look at one day and make assumptions.... technical olympic before it went bankrupt also had days in which it popped up.... so did a lot of the mortgage companies that went bankrupt....  this is why i went long last week and i am still long on a few positions... nothing goes straight up or straight down

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#27) On March 13, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ferrari321 (97.26) wrote:

Great post as usual FB ... keep up the good stuff. Here is an interesting story about your favourite analyst from Reuters btw...

 The cost of calling the turn early can be high. Stephen Kim, a former  high-profile Citigroup Inc. (C) analyst, helped spark a sector rally last fall.  He bullishly upgraded builders including Centex Corp. (CTX) and Pulte Homes Inc.  (PHM) to buy from hold. Many readers interpreted his research note as calling a  bottom. When the downturn continued, he said he was wrong. 
    "My group was a very difficult group to cover and it was rife with risk - and  it still is," he said, adding he doesn't know if his premature bullish call had  anything to do with his being let go from Citi. Kim now covers global housing  stocks for Alpine Woods Capital Investors. 
 

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#28) On March 13, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Ferrari321 (97.26) wrote:

Crap -- sorry for the double post ...

Anyways I am surprised he got another job so quickly -- I can't wait for his next call -- "Hey guys its REALLY the bottom this time"

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#29) On March 14, 2008 at 12:40 AM, TDRH (99.98) wrote:

Great post again.   We are not worthy!  

That being said, I believe what we are seeing is  just the beginning of a storm.   I am not betting on it, in fact I have been long on BAC and MS, and I am looking for the exit.   There may be spikes, and huges runs from short covering and those trying to catch the falling knife, but I see no future for the  current public homebuilders, and with them the financial sector.  

The dramatic  increase in the foreclosures with relatively low levels of unemployment does not bode well for the these sectors and the markets/economy as a whole.   As the economy slows and unemployment rises it will only get worse and it will be on a global scale. 

 This is not to say that the homebuilder and finacial stocks will not spike/crash dramatically giving the gamblers a chance for profit.   But call it what it is, pure gambling, not investing.  

 

 

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#30) On March 14, 2008 at 8:52 AM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

tdrh............ bear stearns........... i won't touch any financials....... pure gambling......

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#31) On March 14, 2008 at 2:12 PM, ToKReason (85.67) wrote:

well what do you think is gonna happen to bzh,mth hov next week?

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#32) On March 14, 2008 at 2:31 PM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

Financials Gambling?  What about HBs?    The quickest one to liquidate to cash wins   Anyone left with any debt after dumping assets is pretty much dead.  Tough to pay back debt when you are losing money on every house you build.  You can't make it up on volume.  Rising foreclosures is only going to make the situation persist.  Many of the foreclosures are concentrated in the areas where builders are building right now.  Those are the homes with the greatest leverage purchased at the highest prices.  Can anyone sing Jingle Mail?

Looks like there are a bunch of HB going out of business sales going on all around the country.  This madness shoud have happened a year ago, we would be climbing out of the problem now.  The hole has become so deep, it may take years.  We had our first major bank bailout since the Great Depression...how old are you anyway?

Too bad SPF has sooooooo much debt, especially JV debt that the average investor can't see, and sooooo little backlog.  Sure the banks are going to allow them to continue to give away the banks security.....the banks are dying for any salvagable assets right now.

The horses are heading down the back stretch:)  Have a great weekend.

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#33) On March 14, 2008 at 3:56 PM, jester112358 (30.12) wrote:

FB  Great post and insight as usual.  You are so right that the banks will put themselves in insolvency should they call in all their loans-only to find there's no marketable assets in back of the loans. In order to limit the carnage to the real economy we all need a little faith in the future so that a total collapse doesn't become a self-fulfilling proficy.

 All fools remember-fear is stronger than greed so the market always falls faster than is rises.

 Unfortunately, there's only one solution for too much debt (no, not more debt).  Hard work, savings, and increasing productivity.  (OK, hard work and savings didn't work for Japan did it?)

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#34) On March 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

tok............. no clue........ it all depends on the markets.. there won't be any good news for homebuilders.....  wci reports on monday..  i can't see anything good coming out of that unless they swap debt for equity similar to CHCI

alstry........  homebuilders are gambling too....... hey i made money on my recent SPF trade so i can't complain...........  however, i am really loaded up with cash now... i made one SKF trade this morning that i closed at the end of the day...  you can't trust this market to the long or short side between bailouts, rate cuts, oil, write offs, etc.....  its crazy

jester........  and residential is just the tip for the banks... it doesn't even include the commercial loans that are going to start going bad this year....... 

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#35) On March 14, 2008 at 5:09 PM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

"you can't trust this market to the long or short side between bailouts, rate cuts, oil, write offs, etc"

I agree.  The problem now is that too many individuals, homebuilders, and municipalities have too much debt and too little income.  If you got debt going into a credit contraction, you are dead.  Why do you think that I keep saying those builders with dirt and debt are dead.  Simply no way to raise money to pay off debt as land is worthless in this environment(Save 5th Avenue or beachfront). 

Builders were dependant on individuals getting easy money.  Municipalities became dependant on rising home prices and builders driving revenues.

The only solution to a individual, business, or municipality with too much debt and too little income(with no rise in income in sight), BANKRUPTCY. 

Be prepared for the mother of all restructurings.  America must restructure.  In the end, most of us may be broke if we have any money in a bank, insurance company, municipality, corporate bond, real estate holding, or business dependant on customers.

Otherwise, you should be OK.

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#36) On March 14, 2008 at 6:28 PM, joelbow7 (< 20) wrote:

To answer the previous post about whether to save the Irish Wolf Hound or the Shitzu (sp) the no brainer choice is to save the Wolf Hound.  Of course the bad news for the homebuilders is that they are the "Shih Tzu" and the big banks are the Wolf Hound.  Enough said.

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#37) On March 15, 2008 at 2:09 AM, angusthermopylae (40.97) wrote:

FB,

I like your analysis, and I believe that you are exactly right:  Blaming the developers or the banks for their past and current behaviors is way oversimplifying the problem.  To me, builders and banks (B&Bs) do what they do because of money:  Is it there?  Will it be there?  How long will it last?

In my opinion, what everyone is calling "overbuilding" and "the mortgage crisis" is only a symptom.  The reason these loans and developments went up was because someone, somewhere, (everywhere?) was supplying cash into the housing market for it.  Money was available, so B&Bs started creating houses.

Same thing for the current crunch:  For some outside reason, the money started drying up, and B&Bs got caught out.  Was it because manufacturing (and therefore, real profit) was disappearing?  Did inflation creep up on everyone?  Did the cost of gas add a hidden charge to each step in the process?  Were overseas investors quietly dumping US dollars?  Did aliens sell their shares of CIA technology?  (just kidding...I think)

Whatever the reason, or combination, B&Bs are taking the brunt of the pain for now.  I like your definition of a bottom, and I believe that you will see your turnaround when people are looking the other way; a good time to invest. 

Right now, I'm one of those bears that you've been talking about, but I don't use charts or numbers (maybe a little long division now and then). I'd rather look at the way everyone behaves, as a group, then see if the numbers back it up.  If yes, then there's a trend.  If no, then why is everyone swimming upstream?

Great post, and I'm looking forward to more. 

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#38) On March 15, 2008 at 11:34 AM, LDahla (< 20) wrote:

Newbie question:  WCI will hold the 4th quarter conference call on March 17 as scheduled, but they bumped it to later in the day.  I'm new to this and wonder if that signals anything?  My personal first impression is the report is grim and they can't find anyway to spin it out of grim, so they are shooting for a late day conference that will let them deliver the news and start drinking shortly after.

 That's the expert analysis I'm bringing to this table =)

 

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#39) On March 15, 2008 at 1:07 PM, floridabuilder2 (99.59) wrote:

alstry....... i'm just along for the ride... as long as the market is volatile i can make money... and really most of money is on the sideline to buy distressed land... i'm talking RTC distressed prices

joel.. touche

angust..........welcome aboard

Ldahla.... it probably signals nothing... the real signal was it took this long to report......  i'm not sure how WCI gets out of this mess, but there are miracles... that is why i don't short penny stocks

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#40) On March 15, 2008 at 2:41 PM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

FB, you and I are tracking.  I just have to pimp you because I am jealous of your style and I am your opponent in a two person race.  Heads up poker if you prefer.

In looking at your recent blogs, I also have to congratulate you on the number of recommendations received.  Without a doubt you must hold the record for the most 50+ consecutive recommended blogs.  Now I am going to have to add popularity to the list of FB envy items.  And well deserved I must admit.

You write excellent posts and present an excellent perspective. Despite my lapse in decorum, I intend to kick you backside even though WCI delayed its CC to tomorrow PM.   If I didn't tell you I was a bit concerned, I'd be lying.....but there is still a good chance for my glue baby to gain ground on the home stretch....especially with this mornings WSJ article on rapidly deteriorating JVs.

Congratulations again on the string of excellent blogs.  Good luck  tomorrow on WCI's earnings release and CC.  Maybe SPF can give us an FAIR valuation of their assets or condition of the JVs before hand?  I am not holding my breath but maybe one of us will be wearing green on St. Patricks Day.

 

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#41) On March 17, 2008 at 3:14 PM, alstry (99.47) wrote:

FB,

I almost lost this one.  You might find this funny from WCI's slide presentation:

'On March 17, 2008, WCI received limited waivers to permit "going concern" audit opinions from all three bank facilities."

 

Squeaks by on the going concern warning on a limited waiver the day of the release.....now we are neck and neck again!!!!

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