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Are We Really Overpriced?

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November 05, 2009 – Comments (12)

I think we have gotten ahead of ourselves a bit. But the question here is different, it is not will the market fall in the coming weeks? It is where is fair price for this market. Here are two scenarios that can justify either point of view, which looks more reasonable and if something is missing please add it:

Argument 1: Overpriced
If you look at EPS for the S&P we are somewhere over 100. If you exclude extraordinary items (loan writeoffs are part of extraordinary expenses I believe so excluding this is questionable) the P/E is ~25. Historical P/E is about 16. Usually when you see a company selling for a multipule over 20 you are expecting revenue growth north of 6-7% for it to be at fair value. According to a blog by TMF Jake it looks like the stimulus package effect peaked in the 3rd quarter so there will be a net sucking effect on GDP by the bill from here on out. Considering that we managed to grow at 0.875% with a 3% addition from the stimulus package it looks like we may be double dipping. I don't know if that makes things look overpriced to you but it does to me...

Argument 2: Fairly/Under Priced
current EPS is roughly 25 for the S&P 500. that is pretty close of the 1971-2007 avg. of about 24. A shocking majority of the funds from the stimulus packages have yet to be spent so Jake's post may not be entirely accurate. The credit markets are unfrozen! Everything looks like we are growing again and the market is the same price it was back in 1998 (also the same price it was in 02 and 03). Do ya think we've grown production possability since then? above all right now everyone is saying the market is overpriced. As such it probably isn't.

 

Where do I stand on all this?

Well my opinion is that we are a bit too high and will likely suffer a pullback to somewhere south of 1,000 but I would not not consider it out of the question for us to remain where we are. What is your opinion? 

12 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On November 05, 2009 at 10:57 PM, russiangambit (29.90) wrote:

Well, my personal opnion is that some stocks are fairly priced ( at P/E of about 10-15) and some are overpriced (at P/E of 30-40 and not so hot growth prospects).

My coworkers, read average 401K investor, don't think the market is overpriced. They think that the market is finally slowly regaining its sanity. One of them commented today on DOW getting back to 10K. They expect continuing slow and steady improvement ahead to eventual recovery of the losses. They aren't afraid anymore to look at the stock prices. After all, they are the ones who still have jobs, so for them while the things are a bit worse, they are not 50% worse and so they don't understand why the market should be 50% down from the peak, may be 10-20% in the ir opinion.

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#2) On November 05, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Teacherman1 (48.58) wrote:

An interesting article and good arguments for both views.

I believe that it is hard to get a good read right now because so much of what is happening is based on psychology and not economicis.

I expect it will continue to go up and down (simetimes significantlly) in the intermediate term.

That is why I don't really pay that much attention to where the overall market is, but concentrate on the longer term prospects for individual companies.

I adjust for the swings in the market by adjusting my position in each stock, not in selling out and going to cash when I think the market may go down, or buying a lot when I think the market may go up.

There is just too much day to day uncertainty with lots of extreme positions and forecasts on both sides of the Bull/Bear perspectives, that it is obvious no one really knows what is going to happen.

Since I am not a trader, I don't play the swings like a trader.

Again, interesting article and gives me food for thought.

Have a good evening.

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#3) On November 05, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Tagit (64.50) wrote:

It is obvious no one really knows what is going to happen

If we did - we would all be fat and happy

You have valid points - I'll take # 2

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#4) On November 06, 2009 at 12:02 AM, KamranatUCLA (29.65) wrote:

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

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#5) On November 06, 2009 at 12:15 AM, streetflame (30.98) wrote:

Despite low GDP growth forecasts, analysts think earnings are going to expand massively in 2010.  (Not just reported earnings but operating earnings.) No surprise, they are always aggressive a year out, before they start having to drop quarterly estimates so they can help companies "beat".

The last time I looked at the official S&P earnings report, their guess was the forward P/E based on 2010 earnings was only 12 (!).  I'll have to dig that up and see how it's changed.

I think the US is slightly overpriced but there are still plenty of opportunities.  

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#6) On November 06, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Tastylunch (29.89) wrote:

depends on whether you think the dollar itself is fairly priced.

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#7) On November 06, 2009 at 12:23 AM, TMFBabo (100.00) wrote:

I think the US is slightly overpriced but there are still plenty of opportunities.  

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.  The only market in which I can't find anything to buy is the severely overvalued market, and that was back in 2007.  I think it's a bit high right now, but I still find things to buy that I like.

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#8) On November 06, 2009 at 12:28 AM, TMFBabo (100.00) wrote:

I'd also like to note that I couldn't care less if the S&P 500 itself is overvalued, because I don't own any of its components.  If the small/micro cap indices were to get too high, I'd be more worried. 

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#9) On November 06, 2009 at 3:02 AM, awallejr (80.08) wrote:

Predicting the future is always a roll of the dice.  Bull or bear can always make an argument for their position I suppose.

What will impact the market in 2010 really is if revenues start to increase. Currently the AVERAGE PE is around 17 (not limitied to just the S&P 500).  So at current prices the market probably is fairly priced.  However, SHOULD revenues increase next year PEs will decline and hence the market should continue to rise. 

I also wouldn't discount the emerging market growth story either.  While I have my doubts about certain emerging markets (namely China) turning into a stronger consumption market, it is still possible that it will.  Afterall a country should strive to improve it's citizen's quality of life.  This could have a major impact on total global growth, a factor I suspect many pundits are discounting too quickly.

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#10) On November 06, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Rightfull (< 20) wrote:

Undoubtly we are running into a a reset of the financial system. Debts are piling everywhere. Only few people are pile winners. How long can global debt continue to increase? There is no way we all will ever be able to pay the debt back. Nobody wants it really either.

To me everything in market is like a drunken driver with a nice polished car. He sees the big wall coming ahead of him and thinks, what the heck, with the right speed and size i will surely pass that wall and presses the gas pedal down.The Big Block will surely make it :)

The market hast almost no chance to correct itself anymore, while borrowed money is put into that system like crazy.(gaspedal down). To me it will continue to rise, with short drawbacks while the gears have to be shifted and than with full speed. BAAAM!

Its expected at the end of 2012 or beginning 2013. Somewhere around that th collapse comes. Until than, welcome Bull. There is a cool article allready 1 year old, but only in german:
http://www.goldseiten.de/content/kolumnen/artikel.php?storyid=8694&seite=2

It pretty much explains the wall and explains the we start walking again after that wall. The car is wasted.. but who knows.. geme continues.

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#11) On November 06, 2009 at 10:09 AM, awallejr (80.08) wrote:

Simply too many potential intervening events, good or bad, can occur by 2013, so I think it a bit "wild" to say BAAAM by then.

Of course if you believe in one interpretation of an extinct race's calendar prognostication (Mayans), the world as we know won't make it passed 2012.

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#12) On November 06, 2009 at 10:13 AM, rofgile (98.99) wrote:

I think there are still underpriced companies out there, based on their market capital and future prospects, not current earnings.  Examples include many manufacturing, construction, shipping, transportation stocks.

(And Warren Buffet is buying railroad.  I'm starting to think of the railroad market as being like buying a dry shipping company that doesn't have an oversaturated market due to too many capesize ships built.)

The banking sector could go much higher if the CRE crash never happens. 

Conversely, there are also overpriced companies in technology such as Apple.  WFMI, solar companies, etc.

----

We still have room for growth, but at some point (perhaps already) the market may be treading sideways for an extended time period.

-Rof 

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