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TLStockPicks (89.23)

Ethanol is EVIL!

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February 27, 2009 – Comments (19)

Say no to ethanol!  Everytime you fill your gas tank up with that 10% corn-based ethanol gas they have at BP, you kill a starving child.  Using ethanol takes food right out of their mouths and puts it into some self-righteous bastard's gas tank.  Think you're doing the world a favor because you're not using up fossil fuel?  Guess what?  Somebody ELSE is going to use it up!  Better for us to all stick with fossil fuels now to buy time so that technology can help us finally feed everyone in the world or find another way to make viable alternative energy before we go back to dumping precious food into our cars.

Go Fossil Fuels!

PS I own shares in Petrobras and Tsakos, and I want them to go UP.

19 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On February 27, 2009 at 1:18 PM, goldminingXpert (29.43) wrote:

ethanol is evil. Agreed.

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#2) On February 27, 2009 at 1:18 PM, GNUBEE (28.76) wrote:

Ummm, Petorbas = Brazil,

Brazil = Largest Ethanol Producer/consumer

Therefore

Largest Ethanol Producer/Consumer = Petrobas.

You picked the wrong horse. But yes it is evil, stupid too

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#3) On February 27, 2009 at 1:38 PM, GNUBEE (28.76) wrote:

TL, sorry, I re-read my reply, and I do sound a like a bit of a Richard. I still stand by my reasoning, but just pretend was able to package my delivery better :)

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#4) On February 27, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Schmacko (65.43) wrote:

Petrobras doesn't produce corn based ethanol though.  Corn based ethanol is the dumb variety. 

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#5) On February 27, 2009 at 3:02 PM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

I can take corn bashing, but I can not take stupidity about kids dying from hunger because of food shortage.   IT is a lack of financial resources to buy food that makes starvation.

People with your attitude are just not smart.  So there no use of civil talk about pro or con's of ethanol.

 

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#6) On February 27, 2009 at 4:06 PM, KColombini (< 20) wrote:

It's ludicrous to accuse ethanol producers and users of starving kids. At the end of each season, when all the corn is harvested and used for its various purposes, there are always ending stocks -- a sort of surplus that is then carried over and used the next season. From the crop harvested in fall 2008, an estimated 1.8 BILLION bushels of U.S. corn will be left over.

 

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#7) On February 27, 2009 at 4:09 PM, TLStockPicks (89.23) wrote:

Gnubee... they use sugar for their ethanol.  Everyone knows corn tastes better with salt. 

Yes, lazifarmer.  I'm retarded.  And you don't understand hyperbole.  But more to the point... what was that whole supply/demand thing I learned from economics in high school?  Wait... something about how if there was less demand for corn (due to, say, a stoppage in the use of corn to produce ethanol) and more supply of it as food (for the same reason) that the price for corn would go down, making it more affordable... even for those with less financial resources?  Hm.  I guess you're right.  I'm the moron.

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#8) On February 27, 2009 at 4:48 PM, GNUBEE (28.76) wrote:

TL, you are correct. on both counts. Sugar and Corn prices.

Lazi-  "Starvation" is due to inability to purchase at inflated prices. What inflates prices? Hmm..how about increased demand. Riots in Mexico due to high corn prices? 'member them

And on top of it I (taxpayer) am going to subsidize the absurdity?

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#9) On February 27, 2009 at 4:56 PM, TMFCrocoStimpy (95.53) wrote:

I rather a fan of ethanol, but wouldn't waste it on my car.

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#10) On February 27, 2009 at 5:41 PM, vegastar (< 20) wrote:

I think you chaps are not well informed about alternative fuels. Many other products are being considered harvest left-overs, gasoline and alcohol.  Biodiesel is derived from vegetable oils and animal fats. Natural gas is a fossil fuel that generates less air pollutants and greenhouse gases. Many people are now building small hydrogen generators to "power their car on water" instead of pure gas. If you wonder why big oil and Middle Eastern oil interest are conducting a smear campaign on ethanol I believe $71 billion dollars is the logical answer.

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#11) On February 27, 2009 at 9:50 PM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

TL/Moron not bad discussion now.  You still do not understand economics of starvation.  If you only earning 2-3 dollars a day, you can still not afford to eat corn if it is zero costs to you.  I have raise a lot more $1 dollar corn than I have $5.  There is still the starvation.   Some one above pointed out there is still the same carry out or larger of all the USA ag products despite of corn ethanol.  Until there is enough charity  from the developed world or enough family income generated by the poor there will be starvation.

Starvation is family members  vs family income.

IF you would remember your American  history, the advancement in American agriculture allowed USA to become and industrial Nation.   IT was not that many generations ago TL your people were farmers.    In poor nations, at times it was only one generation,   there is only so much a 20 acre farm can feed. 

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#12) On February 27, 2009 at 10:02 PM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

GNUBEE. This really more than I want to take on now.  Yes there was more increased demand by corn ethanol.  Corn farmers have meet that with supply. 2009 carry out projections are approaching 1.8 to 2 billion bushels.  That is the highest in over ten years.  way before popularity  of corn ethanol.   Corn ethanol could use between 3.6 to 4 billion  bushels depending on economy.  Supply growth exceeded demand growth.

Go back to economics 101.

 The riots in Mexico is not all about USA Corn.  There are and still is many other issues.

 

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#13) On February 28, 2009 at 2:12 PM, GNUBEE (28.76) wrote:

Lazi ol pal,

Did Ethanol's demand for corn cause price increases?

And Might I suggest researching the fact that there was riots specifically due to high corn prices, and high cost of making tortillas. Do some research and get back to me

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#14) On March 01, 2009 at 1:15 AM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

Gnubee, old pal.  I am here. May not convince you. I just want the other side heard to be heard.. My answers are generally back by reliable sources.

Yes, the price of tortillas is major consideration when your average daily work income could be only $10 a day.

Yes there were Riots in Mexico City in Jan. 2007 supposedly driven by high price of Tortillas. 

No they were not caused by USA Corn price nor corn ethanol.

Corn ethanol uses yellow corn.  Masa Flour is white corn.

USA white corn is than 1% of total production.

Mexico white corn is about 80% of its total corn production

IN Jan 2007 there were no commercial fuel ethanol plants in Mexico and still may not be. 

USA white corn carries a premium of around .50 cents a bu.  Mexico Farmer gets $2.50 -$3.00 a bu more.  Mexico only allow 13-16 million bu of white corn into Mexico.   Not even a drop in the bucket. Mexico Wags white corn price.

Media reported 400% increase in price of Tortillas. President of Mexico bank reported it was only 14 %.

Price of Tortillas in Mexico City started to increase in 1996. by 2004 it increase 400% ,  mean while USA corn price was flat.

You could triple the price of corn for a price increase of 4.6 cents a day for tortillas. IF you take the 400% increase of tortillas that is .31 cents  a day figuring about 8 tortillas a day.  WHO made that 25 cents a difference. Not the Mexico or USA Farmer.

USA was not developed fuel industry until after 2004.

USA yellow corn price started to rise in Oct of  2006. Just 4 months before riots. That is nearly year after white corn started to rise.  Two separate pricing issues.

NO, USA yellow corn did not drive up tortillas. Corn ethanol is just showing up by Jan. of 2007

There are 10,000  corn mills in Mexico. Two. Gruma and Minse control 90 % of production. Both have been in several law suits on both sides of the border for price fixing.

Mexico had just elected a New president  that was Pro NAFTA. That is a dirty word to many in Mexico.

Mexico City has extreme social issues because of size. Over 50% of population is truly poor. Mexico has several motivated social parties.

Mexico City has many differing riots for a variey of social issues.

There is little correlation between USA Corn ethanol to riots for Mexico Tortillas and damm sure not for an onion riot in the Philippines or PASTA in Italy.

 

 

 

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#15) On March 01, 2009 at 6:24 PM, GNUBEE (28.76) wrote:

Good work,  providing factual backup is much appreciated.

I'll consider myself newly educated. Looks like I have been duped by the man.

Now for another question, How petrol intesive is corn related to other crops? Is corn really as much of a fertilizer hog as I have been lead to believe?

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#16) On March 02, 2009 at 12:00 PM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

Petol and fertilizer are almost two differing questions.  MY favorite answer is yes and no to both.

Petrol intesive for corn is the same for other starch base crops when considering yield.  Back to ethanol is evil. In figuring life cycle analysis,  Corn has the same ratio as any crop for petrol based yield.   IT would be possible to show corn better than other crops because the need for less acres.  IN one  BESS scenario, the ethanol per petrol ratio is 12.3 [MJ/MJ] 12.3 gallons  of ethanol for every gallon of petrol used.

I can not get my hands on it.   Walmart sold more fertilizer than an East coast state used for agriculture.

A good rule of thumb for Nitrogen [main fertilizer] is one pound of nitrogen per bushel  [56-60 lb] of a starch crop [corn, wheat, Milo and etc.]    Many of the high end of  corn farmers are dropping that Down to 85 %.   Corn is the high yielded per acre thus more fertilizer per acre.  To grow the same amount of another crop would require more acres and thus the same or even more fertilizer.

To grow high yields of grain, it requires good soil.  Fertilizer helps to maintain or increase soil value.  Good soil will generate some but not all fertilizer.

In the corn vs. cellulose analysis.  IT will take fertilizer to get the cellulose yield to compete against corn.
In my country, cellulose fertilizer value is more value to my soil than to cellulose ethanol.

There are thoughts the desertification of the fertile valley of Iraq and the Nile river was the lack of proper fertilizer to maintain good soil.   They wore the soil out.   The Amazon rain forest has too acidic soil to grow starch crops.   Acidic conditions is caused by too much rain that leaches nutrients out.

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#17) On March 03, 2009 at 6:07 PM, TLStockPicks (89.23) wrote:

Wow 16 comments to a hyperbolic and facetious post trying to half-heartedly rally the entire world to prop up my PBR/TNP prices.  If only I had known how deep you alternative-fuel-tree-hugging-hippy people rammed those tree stumps up your behinds, I probably would've been much more sarcastic and thrown in personal attacks just to stir up the pot even more.

Lazifarmer, you remind me of one of those kids in school who studied really hard, got straight A's due to a lot of extra credit, and then got a 900 on the SATs.  Those kids like to work hard, regurgitate some nits and nats, and present themselves as knowledgeable, yet fail to ever add much to the world because regurgitation skills are only helpful in Jeopardy and hot dog eating.  They lack the creative and logical abilities to carry through a complete thought process beyond precise thoughts that have already been laid out by others for them, and at the end come up with some ill-contrived conclusion that even they don't fully understand.

But you, pal, don't even get that far, for you can't even do the simple step-1 analysis.  You cite the record excess supply and the lack of charitable corn donation as the evidence and the explanation for why corn-ethanol has had no effect on starvation.  Well, sherlock, did you EVER think that IF corn prices hadn't spiked to 5 bucks a bushel due to the whole ethanol thing, maybe those farmers would have been much more inclined to donate that freggin corn? Wouldn't YOU be less willing to donate something that's worth 5 bucks rather than 2 bucks? But forget donations... have you ever thought that maybe some of these groups like red cross or that Sally Strutters group actually pays money for some of the corn they buy and distribute, and can get 2.5x as much per dollar if corn was $2/bushel than $5/bushel?  Wouldn't that magically would make more corn available?  And here's some more simple math: if now there's all this corn being sent around as food instead of being stashed for the hopes of selling it for 5 bucks when the ethanol market heats up again, and i make 3 bucks a day as in your example then guess what, I can get myself a bushel of corn every day if it was $2 but not if it was $5.  And by the way, how do you think the farmers produced all that corn?  What's that?  Through GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES FOR CORN AS ETHANOL INSTEAD OF FOOD?!?  Oh my!  Maybe if that same $5 Billion dollar subsidy was spent on buying and shipping that corn over to africa and india and mexico, angelina and brad won't have to keep plucking those kids out!

And to top it off, it's not just corn that goes up... the price of meat for example of animal that feeds on corn goes up with it... meaning at the end of the day it makes ME have to pay more for my big juicy slab of steak that I'm going to have for dinner tonight! 

So take your opinion back to your farm where you can plant seeds and herd goats and let those of us who understand how this whole "economy" thing works discuss amongst our adult selves whether we should still be giving you your $5billion ethanol subsidy.

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#18) On March 04, 2009 at 12:32 AM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

TL

MY reaction was to the moron statement of  ‘you kill a starving  child’  That was bad taste beyond  facetious. Comments by the others on corn ethanol, commodities and economics, nothing new. There are a lot of two sides and gray areas to discuss.

TL quote  “They lack the creative and logical abilities to carry through a complete thought process beyond precise thoughts that have already been laid out by others for them”

I have been through 36 years of the school of hard knocks beyond formal education.   Lot of things, I have been there and done that.  IF I did not have creative abilities and think out side of the box, I would not be  farming today.  I may not be tomorrow.

TL quote.  “Well, sherlock, did you EVER think that IF corn prices hadn't spiked to 5 bucks a bushel ………”   if you think commodity prices are stable.   You do not “understand the whole  “economy” thing”  IF you thing that commodity prices adjusted for inflation has not been higher. You do not “understand the whole “economy” thing.”

TL quote.   “and i make 3 bucks a day as in your example then guess what, I can get myself a bushel of corn every day if it was $2 but not if it was $5”  I do not care at what price you buy corn, I would like to see you invest in commodities and we will see what kind of  investment expert you are.  There were sure a lot of failures last year and every year before.

TL quote “Maybe if that same $5 Billion dollar subsidy was spent on buying and shipping that corn over to africa and india and mexico, angelina and brad won't have to keep plucking those kids out!”  IF you think $5 billion will go far, guess again.  $5 billion is a drop in a bucket in the total Dept. of AG.  Budget.  Guess where the other $140 billion  non-ag goes?   Programs in the USA for those less fortunate than you. Lot of those programs would not be there today with out a joint effort by Agriculture .

IF you think by cutting Ag. Subsidies,  that it will be a major step to cut the deficit and pay for major programs,   you and some one else will be disappointed and are foolish.

TL quote.  “let those of us who understand how this whole "economy" thing works discuss amongst our adult selves”    You flatter your self.   You can not discuss like an adult and do not even have the background that shows so far the expertise the whole ‘economy “ thing..  Because you are clueless of what makes up the economy.  I will admit my knowledge is very very limited, but it is higher  than yours.

I replied to your  moron statement about  ‘you kill starving kids’. I got in a little decent discussion about “ethanol is evil”    Healthy fossil fuel makes for a healthy ethanol industry.  I hope TL you have read up on Hubert Peak.   AG subsidies????  really compared to the other 3 trillion budget of subsidies.  TL--- I do not know what else you invested in , But I watch your back side.  Pres. Obama after them subsidies also.  Subsidies are also are capital gains and tax credits and there are whole slew of indirect subsidies.  TL even if you only invest foreign,  you have capital gains.

TL this  ‘was’  your blog.  I am out of this discussion for good.  I got to go feed my goats now.  They may be butt heads, but not like yours.

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#19) On March 04, 2009 at 1:20 AM, lazifarmer (< 20) wrote:

TL I Am sorry I Am back.   I study your blog site before I left in a little more detail.  I guess I got  'fooled'. I under estimated you.  Tell me again why you are against corn subsidies??? I see you invested in Corn Products International. 

OOOOPS what about the rest of the story.  

I wonder what ethanol producers are the major competition of CPO.  Did  I mention Bunge  {TL investement] is an Ethanol producer and marketer oh yes in the corn business.

How can you be against me when you have stock in  JD Deere.

Did you know John Deere has been studying 20% ethanol and Diesel combination?

My heart breaks or is it brake?

I see CPO had increase net income despite of $5 corn.   Past years when corn was cheaper lower net income.

Did you know there is only 13 cents of farmers product in a  6 pack of beer. 

Screw the farmer..... I just got a little smarter --- school of hard knocks. You  fooled me. 

Do you know where bad beer and starch goes?  Ethanol

We will not mention corn sweetner and Mexico-- IT is just between you and me.

PSST I read SEC  ethanol filings for  a living.  I am not just any dumb farmer.

Since I now know you really do not think Ethanol is evil by investing in Deere and Bunge. Since you invest in corn production have risk in commodities.   This was fun  I am gone for good.  

 

 

 

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