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Deepfryer (27.91)

GATA and Gold: The Truth is Revealed

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October 09, 2010 – Comments (39)

I'll try to make this blog as brief and as non-confrontational as possible. But that's a pretty tall order, given the nature of this topic. Here's the jist of it:

1. Several posters on TMF have been spreading unfounded conspiracy theories about gold. I am not accusing them of doing this intentionally, but I believe they have been misinformed.

2. These ideas come primarily from a man named Adrian Douglas of a group called GATA (Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee). GATA is an organization which spreads accusations of "price suppression", by central banks and gold cartels, who allegedly want to keep the price of gold artificially low.

GATA's members, unsurprisingly, hold large positions in gold. Also, the group itself is partially funded by gold companies (in an obvious conflict of interest).

3. One of GATA's claims is that the Scotia Mocatta gold vault in Toronto is "empty". This is a lie. There is simply no excuse for spreading rumors like this on TMF without having proper evidence to support it.

If a simple "smell test" wasn't enough to refute this claim, it has been strongly refuted by a man named Nick Barisheff. Please read the section titled, "The Harvey and Lenny Organ Interview" at this link.

4. Another GATA claim is that people are buying "paper gold", which does not really exist. This is another false, fear-mongering claim. The truth is that when you buy an ETF or a financial instrument, you need to understand what you are really buying. It's as simple as that. But there is no conspiracy, and gold is not going to rise to stratospheric levels once this "conspiracy" is revealed.

To understand the concept of "paper gold", please visit this link again and read the section titled, "Is there a real problem with the paper-to-physical ratio or not?"

(the entire article is worth reading, and it debunks many of GATA's claims)

Now, if you want to read an even better de-bunking article, this one pretty much hits the spot.

This article was written in 2009, and you may have noticed that Mr. Christian accepted GATA's challenge to a public debate. The debate took place a few months ago. Who was the winner? Well, see for yourself. You don't have to accept that site's analysis, of course - they provide an mp3 link of the entire debate.

All I want to say is, please do your due diligence. Don't just listen to the people who scream the loudest, and make the most outrageous accusations. The true experts are usually the most quiet, and the most boring people out there. I hope these links can help clear up some misconceptions that have been circulating around TMF.

39 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On October 09, 2010 at 10:43 AM, RonChapmanJr (33.11) wrote:

"The true experts are usually the most quiet, and the most boring people out there."

Doubt it.

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#2) On October 09, 2010 at 1:12 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

I have written several articles on gold for The Motley Fool, but I don't consider an expert on the gold market. I am skeptical by nature and I don't tolerate conspiracy theorists (9/11 "Truthers" really get under my skin). My research into this market suggests that, although there may be some minor irregularities in the gold market, the thrust of your post is correct. Unfortunately, gold is like catnip to numerous conspiracy theorists and other assorted oddballs.

Alex Dumortier

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#3) On October 09, 2010 at 1:43 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Just to be perfectly clear, the first sentence of my previous sentence should read:

"I have written several articles on gold for The Motley Fool, but I don't consider myself an expert on the gold market."

Incidentally, I have listened to approximately one fourth of the debate recording you link to. I find the GATA representative's performance is unimpressive and unconvincing. Furthermore, it appears from the debate that GATA does employ a standard method from every conspiracy theorist's toolkit: "Data mining" for quotes and assigning them a significance and/ or meaning once they are taken out of context.

Thanks for the link!

Alex Dumortier

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#4) On October 09, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Deepfryer (27.91) wrote:

Thanks for the comments!

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#5) On October 09, 2010 at 5:51 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

@Deepfryer, I'm looking forward to hearing from TMFSinch on your blog.

 

@TMFMarathon, I'm not part of any "truther" movement, but how do you explain WTC 7? How do you explain the NIST report on the WTC's collapse? How do you explain Israelis working for a Mossad front company filming and dancing during the collapse, then detained by the FBI, then quietly sent back to Israel? How do you explain Steven Jones's results of the WTC powder he analyzed? How do you explain that the majority of Americans now believe that certain Americans believe the government is lying? How do you explain that the 9/11 Commission Report is a complete farce that doesn't even answer most of these questions? Before you go lumping everyone who questions the government into some kind of "conspiracy nut" category, you might want to read more into it, to separate the ridiculous from the serious allegations. But nice attempt at painting everyone with one broad brush. You'd make a great cable TV commentator.

 

As for gold being for conspiracy theorists, you are way off the mark. The vast majority of the general public has not bought any gold. In fact, many companies are profitting off the public by buying gold jewelry and the people are happy to sell it, thinking they are getting a good price. Your "conspiracy theorists" that have been bulking up on gold include China, India, Thailand, Vietnam South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, hedge funds, ETFs, George Soros, Jim Rogers, Michael Burry. John Paulson, and numerous others.

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#6) On October 09, 2010 at 6:43 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

@BillyTG,

but how do you explain WTC 7? How do you explain the NIST report on the WTC's collapse? How do you explain Israelis working for a Mossad front company filming and dancing during the collapse, then detained by the FBI, then quietly sent back to Israel? How do you explain Steven Jones's results of the WTC powder he analyzed? How do you explain that the majority of Americans now believe that certain Americans believe the government is lying? How do you explain that the 9/11 Commission Report is a complete farce that doesn't even answer most of these questions?

I don't waste my time trying to explain things that are either (a.) fabrications, or (b.) meaningless.

On this topic, I recommend you listen to Noam Chomsky, rather than the first idiot that formulates a lunatic theory.

The vast majority of the general public has not bought any gold. In fact, many companies are profitting off the public by buying gold jewelry and the people are happy to sell it, thinking they are getting a good price. Your "conspiracy theorists" that have been bulking up on gold include China, India, Thailand, Vietnam South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, hedge funds, ETFs, George Soros, Jim Rogers, Michael Burry. John Paulson, and numerous others.

I believe there is a secular bull market in gold, but I don't see how that fact or any of the other points you mention above invalidates the fact that gold tends to attract conspiracy theorists -- in bull and bear markets. The fact that it attracts conspiracy theorists does not mean that people who aren't conspiracy theorists can't be bullish on gold at one time or another. I'm not "painting everyone with a broad brush"; however, when I come across a conspiracy theorist, I don't pretend they are something other than that.

Alex Dumortier

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#7) On October 09, 2010 at 7:21 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

Actually, I've exchanged emails with Noam Chomsky recently and am very familiar with his works. He's brilliant and I cite him regularly in CAPS blogs. He also happens to have an agenda, and be focused primarily on foreign issues, dismisses most domestic issues where he won't even touch specifics preferring instead to focus on the aftermath (inlcuding 9/11 where he says things like "who cares who did it? Who cares who got killed?").  So, yeah, I know Chomsky.  He and Howard Zinn have said things to the effect that some issues are beyond even trying to discuss because the power behind them is unassailable, so they focus on that where they can have impact.

And I'm not talking about "lunatic theories," but evidence. This is where you, as an educated person, should be able to differentiate. Evidence is where a noted physicist with no political agenda analyzes World Trade Center ash and finds out it's thermate, then publishes in a peer-reviewed academic journal. Evidence is public record of Israelies working for a Mossad front company picked up by the FBI after people called in, reporting their filming and happily dancing during the attacks, and then those Israelis being quietly sent out of country. Evidence is the fact that no evidence was saved in one of the biggest crime scenes in history. Remeber Guiliani talking about going through every piece of rubble to find every last bone and identify every victim? Well, it turns out there wasn't a whole lot of rubble to dig through since it was all powder, and he changed his tune pretty quickly as whatever steel was left got shipped off to China and other places post-haste. The list goes on.

What "gets under my skin" is people who are not critical thinkers.  I've spent over a decade in the defense department, spent significant time in Afghanistan and other overseas locations, and have a decent idea how things work, from false flag ops, to psyops, to public misinformation. Once you get beyond all the nonsense floating around, and get beyond the "lunatic theories" and actually look at the evidence and the massive effort by the government to prevent, ridicule, or discredit that information, you will start to have a clue. We all want to believe the official story, but the official story is BS. I was at one of President's Bush's locations on 9/11 and was ready to go kill some people right then and there on behalf of my country. Only in the last couple years have I researched this issue, away from the mainstream media nonsense. Now, it's obvious to me that the two WTC planes were not the cause of those buildings' collapses, and definitely not the cause of the building 7 collapse. So you can lump me in with "lunatic conspiracy theorists" all you want, and then thank me for defending you and the rest of the country against a terrorist threat that has about as much chance of killing you as a comet.

Deepfryer posted interesting information and I want to know the truth behind it because it will impact my thoughts on gold. I have a huge gold position, but that does not make me blind to evidence.  If information came out very disfavorable to the future of gold, I would sell my gold.  I'm interested in maintaining and growing what wealth I have, whether that be through trading doilies or through converting to gold. My take on 9/11 is similar---I want factual information.

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#8) On October 09, 2010 at 7:32 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

PS Stop stealing your lines from Chomsky and think for yourself. Ref: "I don't tolerate conspiracy theorists."

You can't get away with that with someone who knows Chomsky's works.

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#9) On October 09, 2010 at 7:36 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

PPS

I often hear the expression "the truth always comes out."

People who say that have never done classified government ops. Unfortunately, we'll never know thewhole truth behind 9/11 and many other things, to include much of the economic buffoonery happening right now.

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#10) On October 09, 2010 at 11:35 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about regarding "stealing lines from Chomsky". I've never come across that line from Chomsky -- you are evidently much more familiar with his works than I am -- or from anybody else, for that matter

As far as critical thinking goes, this is exactly what I find so maddening about conspiracy theorists: They all seem to think that they are the only ones who are capable of thinking critically. Unfortunately, as Chomsky points out, they are almost to a man untrained not only in the specific fields which they are discussing -- by itself, that's not necessarily a problem -- but also obviously deficient in the most basic forms of deductive and inductive reasoning, which is much more serious.

As far as 'psyops' and 'false flag ops' are concerned, surely you're not comparing two-bit CIA operations in Central America/ the Middle East with 9/11.

Alex Dumortier

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#11) On October 10, 2010 at 12:38 AM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

This is a fun discussion!

If, and I stress the "if" word as much as I can, 9/11 was a false flag, it would compare closely to the Reichstag fire

But there's an in-between ground. 

Following 9/11, it was reported by the AP, and picked up and then buried by Fox News, that Isreali spies had been following the hijackers up to the moment of 9/11 and then bolted out of the country.

Both the American and Israeli govs denounced the report and made the claim that Isreal never spies on America.

Maybe that's true,

In the late 1990's, I was an Embassy Guard. I did my tours in Islamabad, Pakistan and Pretoria, South Africa.  Embassy Guard training was conducted jointly by the Department of State and the Marines.  We were instructed by the Department of State that Isreal was one of the 5 countries that spies the most on America.

So which one lied to me?  The State Department in the 1990's, or the Isreali and US governments in 2001?

Psy-ops work in a number of different ways. One way to do a psy-ops is to have a committee sanctify your story and drop it on the living room tables of Patriotic Americans after the worst terrorist in history.  It's just like dropping pamphlets over the enemy's territory before a bombing run.

Does that mean I have to believe some story about hidden charges and direct US involvement?  No. Not at all. I have absolutely no idea what happened.

I just know that someone lied to me about Israeli intelligence activities, and I don't believe the government's story.

As for GATA, I've never cared about their story, since I don't buy gold as an investment.  I could care less if the price is suppressed.  In fact, if it is suppressed, I hope it continues for a long time.  Why would I want to pay the supposed real price of gold, when the banks are helping me get it at a discount?  That makes no sense. 

David in Qatar 

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#12) On October 10, 2010 at 12:54 AM, NOTvuffett (< 20) wrote:

This is too funny.  I regard the hard-core gold bulls as a bit nutty, but to have 'truthers' in the same post is a bonus.

@BillyTG

In the first place it is 'themite' not 'thermate'.  It is merely a mixture of powdered aluminum and iron oxide which when ignited results in a very exothermic reaction, the reaction products are aluminum oxide and elemental iron.  Do you think that any of these things would not be found in the rubble? People think that aluminum isn't a very reactive metal because it doesn't rust like steel. However, it is very reactive, it just forms a protective layer of oxide.  If you strip off the oxide layer, distilled water will completly consume it in the pure form.  My point is aluminum will burn with an intense amount of heat with the proper conditions.

Noam Chomsky?  He can kiss my a--, on second thought I don't want that creepy commie bastard near that part of my anatomy.

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#13) On October 10, 2010 at 1:08 AM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

As a follow up to my comment. I don't think there can be any question the government used 9/11 as a pretext for adventures that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.  Or can anyone seriously question that many government officials made many false statements between 9/11 and March 2003.  

So, why are people surprised that there are conspiracy theories regarding 9/11?  It would be nutty if there wasn't.  Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be the freakiest bizarro world if pretty much every person in America knew that government officials were capable of ridiculous lying to justify an invasion, and nobody questioned the event that preceded the invasion?  If everyone just walked around believing the official story 100% while knowing about all the other lies?  Wouldn't it be the weirdest place if no one became attracted to bizarre theories that contradicted the government's claims on one event, even when they knew the government had made false statements about the next event?

After all, that's what you would have to believe to call everyone who questions the 9/11 story a conspiracy theorist.

I'm only surprised there aren't more 9/11 conspiracies theories. I guess Americans are losing their imagination. 

David in Qatar 

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#14) On October 10, 2010 at 2:06 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

David,

Watch the Chomsky video -- he addresses some of the points you raise and provides a convincing explanation of why such theories flourish.

I can't say I'm surprised that 9/11 conspiracy theories exist -- after all, humanity's capacity for sublime achievement is only equalled by its "capacity for idiocy" (the expression sounds a little self-contradictory). Unfortunately, a lack of surprise doesn't translate into a lack of irritation for me.

Alex Dumortier

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#15) On October 10, 2010 at 2:11 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

@David, Israel has the most extensive American spy program of any country. In fact, my near-hometown TV station did a report two weeks ago about Israeli spies posing as college art students, going door to door asking interesting questions about the NSA building being built nearby. Curiously, the TV website seems to have taken down the report. The Israeli "art student" program is notorious.

@anyone in general---My friend went to college in a tiny town in a redneck state with an Israeli agent who cut all ties with his American friends (one of whom was my friend) as soon as he graduated, then moved straight into an executive job at a search optimization company in Tel Aviv for a year then back to the US for a very well known US internet company. So, yeah, um...official government reports are truthful? haha not so much. Trust me;) There are bigger politics at play that go well beyond what is reported by official government channels and the mainstream media. Anyone who buys what the mainstream is selling, be it about wars, the economy, politics, or whatever, is a fool (little f).

Arguably the most damaging spy of all time to the US was working for Israel. Pentagon employees, private scientists, government officials are regularly busted for spying. Do a google search. This ain't rocket surgery or classified info. It's out there for anyone to see if they open their eyes. But most people are more concerned with Lindsay Lohan.

The incident of the Israelis who worked in a moving company (a Mossad front) is well documented, even in the mainstream media, but retracted as is standard in the mainstream for anything counter to the government's needs. In fact, there is video of the Israelis on a TV program in Israel, a few months after the fact, talking about the experience and saying how now the "US knows how it feels to be attacked" and they were merely "documenting the event." Anyone who questions why Israel would benefit from the US being attacked by Mid-East terrorists, or why Israel would want to spy on us, doesn't understand how much Israel's survival depends on our presence, military might, money, and political backing.The US and Israel are BFF: best frenemies forever:)

Even 9/11 Commission representatives say the report was a total whitewash, so when the very writers of it say it's BS, why can't we get someone like TMFMarathon to acknowledge that it's BS? 9/11 coverup has been one of the best propaganda campaigns of all time.

@TMFMarathon, please watch and read some of Prof Steven Jones's material. Incidentally, perhaps unbeknownst to yourself, your total dismissiveness of 9/11 as being anything other than what the official government story reports it to be, your ridicule of people that ask any questions as "lunatic theories" is exactly the attitude that makes it so difficult to continue the investigation. 9/11 was so emotional to so many, and unfortunately too many Americans think patriotism means agreeing with everything the government says or tells us, when exactly the opposite is true! Like I said before, I wouldn't have believed it on 9/11, not even in 2005, but if you ask me today, I am convinced that the near-perfect collapses of the three WTC buildings had nothing to do with the two planes that crashed. To think otherwise is ludicrous and ignoring the evidence.  The "conspiracy theory" is in the coverup.  I have friends that tell me "I just can't believe our government would lie to us." Um, okay, that's fine that it's emotionally challenging to contemplate the idea, but it's tragic that people are simply unwilling (for emotional or "patriotic" reasons) to consider factual, scientifically-tested, peer-reviewed research (like that of Steve Jones). I don't know who did it or why. And frankly it doesn't matter until we convince serious people that the three buildings were taken down by controlled demolition, and get the government to fess up to at least that much...they halfway have with Building 7. But then you haven't read that much about it, have you?  "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."--Jefferson

PS I still have yet to see a clear refutation of anything I've said. You've resorted to writing things like "lunatic theories," "fabrications," "meaningless" to "waste time" researching the seminal event of this century, "first idiot."

Please, for the love of God, show me this deductive and inductive reasoning that will get me back to your reality, back to believing that two planes made three fire-resistant steel buildings basically turn to powder, to understand why molten steel was burning in the foundation for weeks afterward, why the remaining debris was cleaned up and shipped out before a proper investigation, why the 9/11 Commission and NIST didn't do the obligatory arson tests which would have found demoliton material thermat, why you talk about people speaking outside of their specific fields, yet you won't read Steven Jones's (a serious, respected, apolitical, physics professo)report. I'm begging you to help me see the light.  In fact, I do believe, because of this thread, you might be lost forever out of mere pride.  Americans are a prideful bunch and don't admit when we're wrong.  Hell, I know, I denied it for years. The fact of the matter is that people disregard fact in favor of their beliefs. Do you believe that, or does your reasoning tell you otherwise?

Pleas keep reading about the topic my friend, before you write this one off. Find reliable, credible sources, disregard the lunatics and media shills.

 

 

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#16) On October 10, 2010 at 2:16 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

TMFMarathon, why do you keep citing some Chomsky video? I've seen it. He doesn't say anything of value regarding 9/11. His ideas for conspiracy theories are great, but he doesn't say anything concrete about 9/11. Is that seriously the foundation behind your belief that 9/11 is as the government officially reports it, because Chomsky says he doesn't accept conspiracy theories? Like I said, please think for yourself. Chomsky is what is called a gate-keeper, and you sir have been kept in the gate. Mission accomplished.

I've watched your video and countless other Chomsky videos and read many of his books, so you should do me a favor and read Prof Jones's peer-reviewed, academic paper.

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#17) On October 10, 2010 at 2:23 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

@NOTvuffett,

thermate is thermite with sulphur. Keep reading buddy and you'll see the light, I swear! Thermate is what was in the WTC ash.And no, melted steel and thermite (or thermite) have distinctly different signatures. Check out one of Jones's lectures in Texas where he gets into this stuff.

Chomsky isn't a communist. He considers himself a liberal social anarchist. God, I feel like I'm teaching here. Sorry, but you guys are out to lunch on some of this, parroting the mainstream crap, and I study it constantly.  This is kind of a sensitive issue for me since I've lost friends and done my share ofAmerica's dirty work in repsonse to 9/11.

 

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#18) On October 10, 2010 at 2:38 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

To be clear, we're not talking about a conspiracy. Yet. How can we talk conspiracies until we figure out what happened. What happened in NYC was that two planes crashed into the twin towers. Those towers collapsed and a third building collapsed in picture-perfect, demolition-mirroring fashion. The evidence is clear that the buildings, which were designed specifically to withstand a plane crash, fell straight down in short order, with bright orange lava flowing out, with thermate found on the scene, with little evidence of bodies left, with the concrete completely pulverized, etc.

I defy anyone here to find another example of a building anywhere in the world at any time in history that collapsed in such perfectly spectacular fashion with molten orange liquid pouring out, leaving no clumps of building on the ground. 

If anyone on Motley Fool can prove me wrong about the WTC, I will give him one ounce of gold. Seriously, we'll meet up with the Gardners and I'll bring Dr. Jones to cite scientific evidence and you can bring Dr. Chomsky to blather about how "conspiracy theories are unbelievable" and we'll let a randomly picked, impartial, local physics professor, say from UVA, to judge. I'll obviously be arguing that the buildings fell by controlled demolition, and you can rgue that they fell straight down despite localized corner-ish fires that melted the steel beams and then pancaked down. Any takers?

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#19) On October 10, 2010 at 2:41 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

@BillyTG

I'm afraid I'm going to choose the blue pill and keep living in the Matrix, while you battle it out against the machines. Give 'em hell!

Alex D

 

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#20) On October 10, 2010 at 2:55 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

Alex D, fair enough. Livin' high on the lie is the easy way, so easy because it requires little thought, just drink in the Kool-Aid being poured by the government and media. Sometimes I wish my mind could do the same, but I have some insane idea that truth matters and that lies suck. Having worked with the machines for so many years since taking the red pill, it's impossible to go back to the world that doesn't care, that lives in fantasy so well packaged for public consumption.

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#21) On October 10, 2010 at 3:00 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Before I take the blue pill, I should add that the debate you propose has taken place many times before, and the "truthers" invariably end up looking like the cranks that they are.Popular Mechanics took on the two idiots who produced 'Loose Change' and it was like watching adults trying to argue with infants.

With regard to Steven Jones' "peer-reviewed academic paper", it never made it anywhere near a respected engineering journal with a proper peer review process. His claims have been soundly debunked in exhaustive detail. Here is a good resource on the Jones debacle, as well as a comprehensive examination of numerous flimsy claims related to a "cover up" pertaining to 9/11.

Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories

Alex Dumortier

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#22) On October 10, 2010 at 3:31 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Here are other good resources that produce a controlled demolition of Steven Jones' flimsy paper:

Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories

911 Myths, WTC (Demolition)

Alex Dumortier

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#23) On October 10, 2010 at 3:46 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Here is a proper peer-reviewed paper that appeared in a respected engineering journal, the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.The authors conclude that the collapse of the WTC towers was entirely consistent with a jet fuel fire, i.e. no controlled demolition is required to explain it.

Alex Dumortie

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#24) On October 10, 2010 at 4:02 AM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

By the way, the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, which I refer to in my previous comment, is published by the American Society of Civil Engineers.

Steven Jones, on the other hand, wrote a paper suggesting that Mayan art contains evidence of the Mormon belief that Jesus Christ visited America. Talk about critical thinking!

Alex Dumortier

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#25) On October 10, 2010 at 5:06 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

Well, you stumped me on the Jesus thing. I got nothing for you there, except I don't believe Jesus caused 911.

Yeah, the Loose Change kids look immature next to mature adults. A lot of Loose Change is hyped up stuff set to spooky music. You shouldn't associate anyone else questioning the government with them.

Here's Dr. David Griffin discussing the connections between the Popular Mechanics authors and editor with the Bush Administration (the editor is cousins with Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security Secretary, an author was a writer for the national strategy plan appointed by Condie Rice), so Popular Mechanics can hardly be considered impartial.

As for academic journals, those are as political as anything. Jones was retired early by BYU for making "unpatriotic" waves they didn't want.  There are many cases of academic articles being rejected by prestigious journals, not based on merit, but on politics. 911 is a very sensitive issue. Obviously there is a problem. Steven Jones himself was emailed along with the BYU administration by Homeland Security that he needed to stop talking about thermate.

If you read about the media after 911, the same thing happened. Newspapers and TV stations simply did not allow articles questioning anything about 911. To do so was horrible for commercial sales, for viewership, and considered "unpatriotic."

I mean I guess we could go on and on like this all day. There are a million articles saying that 911 happened as the government reported.  There are a million articles saying that 911 was definitely not as advertised. And in the end, I suppose it comes down to most people taking the blue pill. It is too difficult to do otherwise. I'd ask you to read the 911 Report, the NIST report, to see what farfetched ideas they have, to see what they left out. 

I'm honestly just baffled that you are so aggressively defending the 9/11 official story. Do you honestly believe all the government's claims? Is there no part of 911 that seems a little off to you? Even the 911 Commission Report writers, members of Congress, have called the report a sham. Have you studied any US history? Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin, the catalyst we used to start the Vietnam War? Decades later, the NSA and Vietnam War Secretary of State McNamara confessed that it was a fake setup to start Vietnam. There are literally dozens of other examples, a handful of which had major worldwide ramifications.

Why, for the love of God,do you suck down the bullsh!t so willingly? Please answer me this.I'm not asking you to believe any conspiracies, I'm asking you to open your eyes, watch video of the towers collapsing, ask how a building that wasn't even hit by a plane could fall down the way it did, how the buildings that were hit by planes had plane-holes in corners or near corners, had unequal fires, yet somehow managed to fall so perfectly, why the official explanation of how the buildings collapsed was changed when discovered that Silverstein (the owner) wouldn't be paid as much insurance under the first official story? It all defies logic. If the government and media hadn't pumped out so much propaganda afterward,if you had been deaf to mainstream TV, what would you think about building 7 (nearly all footage of which has subsequently been altered or eliminated)? I'm just asking you to recognize some simple observations, and all you counter with are quickly-googled counter claims that may or may not have validity, but I still see no evidence that you have even critically considered the issue. HOW DID BUILDING 7 FALL SO QUICKLY AND PERFECTLY? Please answer. I want the answer. The government has refused to answer. It's not even mentioned in the 911 Report.

Man up and take the red pill and look into reality. Seriously, is there any official government story you disbelieve? Clearly, you've never worked in government? 

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#26) On October 10, 2010 at 10:04 AM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

Alex,

It's perfectly understandable to be bothered by conspiracy theorists, but not the existence of the theories.  The conspiracy theorists would be better off just pointing out the false statements of government officials and allowing the public to make their own theories.

I'm much more bothered, however, that government officials would make over three dozen proven false statements leading up to the invasion of Iraq, false statements that led to the deaths of over a hundred thousand people. 

David in Qatar

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#27) On October 10, 2010 at 11:59 AM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

Greatest propaganda campaign in the history of the world.

Wonder what the grand plan was besides Iraq? General Clark talks about it here.

Children can watch a replay of WTC 7 fall down quickly and perfectly evenly, symetrically, controlled and recognize instantly that "that can't happen!" from two isolated fires.  Yet, somehow most American adults were convinced (slowly but surely they are coming around to see the light) by official statements and media coverage that damage from aircraft wreckage somehow led to building 7's (which wasn't hit by a plane) perfect failing.

I'll say it again, I challenge anyone here to find another example of any building in the history of the world that had orange molten liquid and fell at near-freefall speed symmetrically straight down into its own pulverized concrete, due to anything other than controlled demolition. Look at pictures of collapsed buildings. They tip over, not straight down, they fall slowly, unevenly, not in a perfectly controlled straight-down fashion, they don't have thermate in the ash. Children recognize this impossibility of a structure naturally falling so perfectly. ONE OUNCE OF GOLD TO THE WINNER. Alex, you've spent plenty of timetrying to convince yourself that you know everything, that the government wouldn't lie to you, so why don't you take a little time and surf the web for an example of a building falling down like the WTC and earn yourself a cool $1300? Anyone else is welcome to join in. Here are google images of collapsed buildings to get you started.

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#28) On October 10, 2010 at 12:37 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Why, for the love of God,do you suck down the bullsh!t so willingly? Please answer me this.I'm not asking you to believe any conspiracies, I'm asking you to open your eyes, watch video of the towers collapsing, ask how a building that wasn't even hit by a plane could fall down the way it did, how the buildings that were hit by planes had plane-holes in corners or near corners, had unequal fires, yet somehow managed to fall so perfectly...

This is just one example of how maddening and insulting conspiracy theorists can be, and it is emblematic of your entire comment. You can dismiss the Chomsky video all you want, but as he rightly points out, it isn't sufficient to point a video camero out a window (or to watch a video tape) to come to any conclusions regarding the collapse of a building -- even if one were trained in civiil engineering.

I'm the one who has got his eyes open to reality -- not the government's or any other 'official' version -- the one that is carefullly  analyzed by numerous qualified engineering professors. Meanwhile, simply asserting that the buildings fell "too perfectly" to occur in this scenario doesn't make it true. Here is a proper peer-reviewed paper I referenced in an earlier comment that shows that the way in which the building collapsed was entirely consistent with a jet fuel fire.

By the way, you can't have it both ways. You can't present (a poor quality) journal paper in support of your conspiracy theory and then dismiss all journal papers that contradict it on the basis that academic journals "are as political as anything". I'm used to that, though, since it is a standard tactic of conspiracy theorists: Obfuscate, by trying to sow doubt about opponents' motives rather than addressing their arguments direcly, something conspiracy theorists are unable to do.

This is going to be my last comment on the topic. I can't spend any more time on what amounts to a debate on heliocentrism with Pope Gregory XV -- There is clearly no amount of evidence that would convince you that your views on this topic are nothing more than an entertaining fable.

Alex Dumortier

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#29) On October 10, 2010 at 12:42 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

I wrote:

Here is a proper peer-reviewed paper I referenced in an earlier comment that shows that the way in which the building collapsed was entirely consistent with a jet fuel fire.

'Building' should be pluralized here -- the paper refers to the twin towers' collapse.

Alex Dumortier

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#30) On October 10, 2010 at 1:01 PM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

This is like watching two retarded kids take turns humping a football.

Is there anyone willing to admit that both the "conspiracy theories" and the government story could be complete bullsh*t?

David in Qatar

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#31) On October 10, 2010 at 1:01 PM, TMFAleph1 (95.32) wrote:

Children can watch a replay of WTC 7 fall down quickly and perfectly evenly, symetrically, controlled and recognize instantly that "that can't happen!" from two isolated fires... Children recognize this impossibility of a structure naturally falling so perfectly.

Mind-boggling. I hadn't even seen this extraordinary "argument" when I wrote my previous reply. So now it is children we should be listening to on complex questions of engineering, rather than professors of engineering? Perhaps we should submit the question to fetuses or protozoa to get a definitive ruling in the matter.

This beggars belief; now I know I have wasted several hours arguing with someone who is satisfied with the observations of a child. You could have had the courtesy of warning me ahead of time.

Alex Dumortier

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#32) On October 10, 2010 at 1:26 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

You talk about insulting yet you have used highly offensive and ridiculing words throughout this thread as I've pointed out before.

I don't dismiss the Chomsky comment. In fact, I already addressed it and will do so again. The man is brilliant and has interesting ideas on conspiracies and other things. What I'm discussing here has nothing to do with conspiracies. CHOMSKY DOES NOT DISCUSS SPECIFICS OF DOMESTIC ISSUES. What about that is not clear? Chomsky discusses fallout, the political and foreign policy ramifications of major events. That's his specialty and that's where he's an activist. Chomsky has made statements that it doesn't matter who died on 911 or who did it, that it doesn't matter who killed JFK, or why they did it, etc. SPECIFICS OF SINGLE CATALYSTIC DOMESTIC EVENTS DO NOT MATTER TO HIM.

Don't you find it ironic that you keep clinging to some generic Chomsky video in which he says that the theories espoused are typically by non-experts, yet he himself is a non-expert and you use his generic words as foundation for your beliefs on why the official story of the WTC buildings is correct?

I'm talking about why the WTC buildings, THREE buildings, all fell exactly the same perfect way.  The observational evidence, video alone, is damning. Then address the presence of thermate or orange molten liquid.

I read that article and your other links because I want to know information for and against. Have you read my links? The article makes incredibly generic statements. Its basis relies on fuel from the planes, which contradicts official reports that the bulk of fuel was burned off in the initial explosion. It cites temperatures far below what other engineers say is required to melt steel. It mentions nothing of building, the most obvious demolition of all time, where even the government official story has yet to produce a plausible alternative explanation.

Your eyes are not open to reality. Have you any experience whatsoever with the government? What if I told you that right now we had special forces running covert ops in well over a dozen countries that the public has no idea about, would you believe that? What if I told you that it is common and expected for FBI, CIA, and military officers to lie to the press to protect official explanations? What if I told you that the most accurate independent journalists have been kicked out of Afghanistan within hours after publishing journals disfavorable to the US agenda? What if I told you that former presidents and a former CIA director have warned against this kind of propaganda after they left office,and warned that the CIA controls ever major media outlet? Yeah, keep telling me you have your eyes open when you've already said you are happy in your blue pill world.

You are right, though, neither of us will convince the other any differently. It goes back to the red pill/blue pill. You've never taken the red pill and refuse to. It's too psychologically unnerving. You're not alone, so no worries. The government loves people like you, educated and gullible. You drink in the official story fable. You cite Chomsky's take on conspiracies so much, that maybe you ought to do yourself a favor and listen to some of his other speeches and read some of his books where he explains how jingoistic we become through sports, how corporate motives drive legislation, how the US political party system is a farce, how easily officials can ignore issues that matter and confuse the public. 

Check out this video snippet. Amuse me. Maybe you'll find it entertaining and worth a laugh.

Let me ask you a question outside of 911 since you obviously have this infantile trust in government, and ridicule my assertions that the government is capable of lying despite my CAREER as a defense operator and your career as a common citizen. Out of curiosity, do you believe statements made by the Fed, the SEC, the Treasury? Do you trust what they tell the public or their ability to do their jobs competently?

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#33) On October 10, 2010 at 1:29 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

David, I have admitted that conspiracy theories are bullshit, from loose change to whatever.

I'm asking for someone here to explain how building 7 collapsed, to explain all this evidence from the twin towers like molten orange liquid and thermate that have no correlation with fires and 100% correlation with controlled demolitions. How is that conspiracy?

What we know, what has been admitted by 911 commission congressmen is that the GOVERNMENT STORY IS 100% BULLSH!T. What we don't know is what really happened. That leaves a lot of possibilities, but Alex D chooses to believe the government story. Mind boggling.

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#34) On October 10, 2010 at 5:02 PM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

BillyTG,

I don't know if he believes the government story or not because he has not addressed that issue. 

But watching this debate was pretty fun.  It's totally meaningless.  You already have mountains of irrefutable evidence that the 9/11 commission report is BS, that government officials made false statements to invade another country, etc.  You don't need to know what happened to Building 7.  Certainly, it's not necessary that Alex knows the theory about Building 7.  It just doesn't matter.

All that matters is that the official story is BS. The rest will take care of itself.

I do love your passion though.  It's a hell of alot more interesting than the pretentious, ineffectual, haughty demeanor of government stooges.

David in Qatar

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#35) On October 10, 2010 at 5:47 PM, BillyTG (29.39) wrote:

Thanks David. I typically can generate a lot of conversational buzz in any company! A lot of government stooges know the BS, but hey, it's a paycheck! That's why so many go public AFTER retirement.

9/11 is especially sensitive because it is more recent. But it is the foundation of all our foreign policy of this decade, brought in sweeping "Patriot" laws reducing the public's privacy, etc. Literally hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of 9/11 fallout. And yet so many people are psychologically unwilling to acknowledge even the most obvious of impossibilities (Building 7 falling down perfectly due to fire, uh huh). So, yeah, it's an uphill battle for sure. Especially when intelligent, well educated, credible people are perfectly willing to propagate the official story.

You're right that it's totally meaningless and must look ridiculous by now, like a knife fight in a telephone booth.

For the record, I'm basically politically atheist. I'm not pushing any agenda other than wanting an American public that has factual information. With such a secretive government, that's impossible. None of this has anything to do with conspiracies, but more to do with a system that is amazing at keeping the public corralled in a certain alternative universe.

Taking another line from Chomsky: "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." Chomsky himself is a gatekeeper who keeps information contained within that spectrum.

I guess I can't expect the public to understand. It's absolutely crazy how inside out things are. Hell, I blogged last week about how the US infected Guatemalans with STDs a few decades ago in some dimented experiments, not to mention anything of the CIA's LSD trials on civilians. President Obama apologized. All of this is easily searchable. Is that a conspiracy? Some of these things take decades for the government to admit publicly, once the risk of public outrage has dissipated.

You can look at last week's government travel warning to Americans, to avoid going to Europe. Well, people have more chance of getting killed driving in Europe than getting killed by a terrorist. That warning was sent out for different reasons, and I'm speculating here, but it most likely has to do with keeping US dollars at home and in scaring the US public to further put trust in the government. I've lived about 5 years overseas and big US cities at night are some of the most dangerous places I've been. Just sayin'.

FYI, I wrote an email in the past day to Professor Jones asking him for comments on the websites discrediting him and the academic paper TMFMarathon posted (which interestingly was written just days after the tragedy).  I also wrote an email to Mr. King and Mr. Douglas about gold price suppression. See, I actually have a desire to continue learning, to strive for that elusive thing called truth.

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#36) On October 11, 2010 at 12:51 AM, devoish (96.11) wrote:

This is like watching two retarded kids take turns humping a football.

Is there anyone willing to admit that both the "conspiracy theories" and the government story could be complete bullsh*t?

David in Qatar

Me, although I am sorry I waded through this. Now I am going skating in hell.

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#37) On October 11, 2010 at 1:04 AM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

When we're not talking directly to (past) each other, we find the things we agree on.

David in Qatar 

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#38) On October 11, 2010 at 6:40 PM, alberta911 (53.21) wrote:

Deepfryer,
Let me make this as confrontational as possible from one Canadian to another
1.  Pizzed to see you have wasted your Thanksgiving being rude to our neighbours
2.  Canadian money managers have spread more unfounded conspiracy theories about gold than Gata ever could
3.  Price supression came from many avenues....probably the largest would be our Canadian Barrick hedgebook
4. Scotia Mocatta is the largest subcustodian to gold in Canada...largest custodian is Royal Mint.
Empty in Toronto...yeah sure considering Sprott is based in Toronto...dream on
5.  Embry spread the BS not montley so do not accuse the innocent bystanders like Alex Dumortier about default of comex and paper issues it came from a much wealthier and informed bookrunner.

all rumours were started at home...our home
All hedgebooks are closing  @ home
Point the finger at ourselves and not others like innocent bystanders like Motley Fool

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#39) On October 14, 2010 at 9:25 AM, XMFSinchiruna (27.18) wrote:

Deepfryer = ETFsRule

 

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