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catoismymotor (< 20)

House narrowly passes landmark health care bill.

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November 08, 2009 – Comments (38)

I'll spare you the rant. Click here for the scoop.

 

My favorite quote from the article is, "It also imposes a tax surcharge of 5.4 percent on income over $500,000 in the case of individuals and $1 million for families."For those fellow Fools that bring in that kind of annual income I am sorry the Socialists are taking aim at you. The upside is they are targeting the entertainment industry talent and moguls which tend traditionally to be Democrats. I wonder how well they will feel about this, should it make it through the Senate, when an additional $25,000 to $50,000+ is forced from their hands annually by the IRS to pay for this beast. And don't feel smug if you make less than $500,000 a year. Next they'll be after you.

38 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On November 08, 2009 at 12:38 AM, TMFUltraLong (99.95) wrote:

Socialism inches closer.....

UltraLong

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#2) On November 08, 2009 at 12:40 AM, catoismymotor (< 20) wrote:

Listen, I could either blog about this or the fact I have let Animal Planet suck thirty-five minutes of my life away while trying to convince me there is any d@mn difference in behavior between domestc breeds of cats. They are CATS!!! All cats treat humnas like staff. I know this because I am a lifelong cat owner. My head wishes to explode! Where is the remote?!

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#3) On November 08, 2009 at 12:48 AM, catoismymotor (< 20) wrote:

UL, I agree. Socialism is like that creepy girl that keep sliding closer and closer to you while you both sit on a bench waiting for the bus. I don't want to talk to her! If I have to speak with a creepy bus waiting girl I would prefer to do it on a bench waiting for a bus in Italy.

 

Did that make sense? Has Animal Planet also taken my ability to reason and communicate clearly? ARRRGH!

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#4) On November 08, 2009 at 1:12 AM, whereaminow (30.78) wrote:

catoismymotor,

Awesome. Did you really ever have a doubt that they'd get their way?

Here's a bet for any takers. I bet that the Republicans will put "repealing the Health Care bill" on their platform, win re-elecion and then double the program's size and entitlements. Anyone want the other side of that bet?

David in Qatar

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#5) On November 08, 2009 at 1:34 AM, vrpirata (< 20) wrote:

So, you believe we are at risk of having higher taxes eventually? The way I see it is that we have being postponing higher taxes ever since our deficit got bigger and bigger. It isn’t like we really had low taxes, it was more like the lack of paid taxes were accumulated as country debt.

Our current health care system was getting us closer to bankruptcy as a country. It looks like this reform might bring cost under control, the same way it has work for other countries. So I say welcome to this must needed change.

I still believe this reform is not enough, Doctors pay-per-service must end too. Doctors should focus on curing people and not about ways to make more money.

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#6) On November 08, 2009 at 1:42 AM, whereaminow (30.78) wrote:

The American government has proven again and again that its primary agenda is killing people (War on Iraq, War on Afghanistan, War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Guns, War on Producers, War, War, War.) Who in their right minds would want to put these maniacs in charge of healing people? Only the simplest drones.

David in Qatar

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#7) On November 08, 2009 at 2:15 AM, angusthermopylae (40.53) wrote:

Wait till they vote for the final bill after the merger of the Senate and House versions--that's when you'll see the real sparks fly.

Because it'll be closer to election and "different than what I voted [for/against]", both sides of the aisle will be scrambling to hold on to their own votes.  The threat of defeat will loom larger than Pelosi to Democrats in Republican-leaning districts, and Republicans in Progressive districts will realize what an a$$ Boehner is and vote for it.

As I said on David's blog...Comedy of the Absurd.

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#8) On November 08, 2009 at 2:16 AM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

...inches closer?  How about we already have a communist in the oval office, who is already guilty of treason!  He and his appointed, annointed and elected ilk are doing the opposite of their pledge to the citizens of this country-  not upholding and defending our Constitution, but tearing it apart piece by piece.

It is the result of immorality and Godlessness.  While our constitution does provide for the separation of church and state, let's not confuse this with the seperation of God and Country.  No matter how you slice it, this country was founded with Christian principals, a Christian God, by Godly men who were not afraid to defer to God in their decisions and lives.

Obama is a Godless man (he even obscures anything to do with God at his public events), as are most of our electorate and the rest of the self-preserving socialists calling the shots.  They no longer listen to the people, and so our government is no longer "by the poeple" by instead "by the electorate."

The pre-revolution British monarchy has been replaced by megalomaniacal savior-complex, intellectual elitists who actually believe it is within their abilities to direct, protect, renew and save the entire world according to their own grand visions.  Our founding fathers condemned and warned against these ideagogues that are overwhelming our whole system.  Noone learned from Napoleon.  Noone learned from Hitler.  Noone learned from Stalin.  Noone leaned from Tse Tung.

When I hear the members of Congress calling out these socialists and communists in public, then I will see a glimmer of hope.  When the Christian God is humbly worshipped and given the highest place in schools, government and public places and decision-making, then everything else will fall into place.

Until then...we are just lost little sheep, being herded by shepherds who are leading us into the storm and into the wolves' dens.

Read your history folks.  Our entire constitution was written on a single sheet of paper.  This bill is 1990 pages long.  If it isn't obviousl to every single thinking, normal citizen of this country that this bill is the equivalent of creating another IRS or worse, then we haven't got a prayer...the country is just full of complete imbeciles....and the government is creating even more imbeciles generation by generation through cradle to grave indoctrination, mainstream media misinformation, showmanship over substance and consistant lowering of standards in real education.

The U.S. government has become the biggest going joke.  Oh, and by the way, Congress has been exempted from the requirements of the Healthcare Reform Bill....and it doesn't look like Obama will be using his wonderful new healthcare system if it passes either.  Imagine that! 

 

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#9) On November 08, 2009 at 4:02 AM, ChannelDunlap (< 20) wrote:

Y'all need to calm down.  Acting like this is some huge socialist takover.  They're just trying to bring out healthcare system on par with the rest of the civilized world. 

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#10) On November 08, 2009 at 7:28 AM, whereaminow (30.78) wrote:

ChannelDunlap,

Yes, I'm sure that is exactly what the lobbyists were trying to do when they wrote this bill. I would also like to sell you some ocean front property in Arizona. What would you like to bid?

David in Qatar

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#11) On November 08, 2009 at 8:27 AM, themanwon (< 20) wrote:

your comment stating "when an additional $25,000 to $50,000+ is forced from their hands annually by the IRS to pay for this beast. " sounds so pathetic.  You are the very same people that think it is outrageous when these very same people spends millions on parties, houses in multiple locations and paying for their 20th $300K vehicle.  I use to be in the music business years go and was around the people you are crying about.  25K to 50K is like an average person buying an average laptop  which cost less than $1000.   My wife and I are highly educated and currently bring in about 235K annual and would not mind paying additional taxes to see more less fortunate covered.  That what being an American is all about.  Oops I forgot since the 8 years of the last president, being American means let see how much we can make profit wise and get away with corporate greed and call it capitalism.  Wait before you comment. I am a Republican that converted after I start thinking for myself and going back to basic and reading how the economy really work and not what it spilled out to the media by the right and left wings.  You will realize it works just like car insurance.  As less people are covered the risk goes up and the cost goes up. 

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#12) On November 08, 2009 at 8:43 AM, whereaminow (30.78) wrote:

themanwon,

My wife and I are highly educated and currently bring in about 235K annual and would not mind paying additional taxes to see more less fortunate covered.

Do you give to charity? If you don't mind paying additional taxes, why didn't you just give the money to charity yourself? Please tell me that with your advanced degrees and tremendous business experience that you didn't mean to say that you completely accept the idea of paying an intolerably inefficient middle man a fee to do something that you can do yourself with the click of a mouse button.

That what being an American is all about.

Yep, hiring an inefficient middle man to do something you are too lazy to do yourself is exactly what being an American is all about. I couldn't agree more.

David in Qatar

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#13) On November 08, 2009 at 9:00 AM, themanwon (< 20) wrote:

Whereaminow, plain and simple we do donate to charity, along with at least 8% going to tithing. I do admit that the government has not been efficient , but ask how many seniors or veterans will give up there benefits and you will here crickets in the room. I know what the "economy of scale" means and know how to pick up a book an understand what steps need to be taken. Have you discovered you local library lately?  If not do so and stop the madness.  This is the same crap that happened when we tried to segregate the schools not too long ago.  all the oppositions lead to one thing, great media coverage.  Information is power and power is success. so get some. 

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#14) On November 08, 2009 at 9:34 AM, catoismymotor (< 20) wrote:

# 4 - Doubt? No. Although I did have the "audacity of hope" on my side. I should have clicked my heels together with greater conviction as I chanted "Remember the Constitution" three times in quick succession.

 

# 5 - Yes. To feed the Socialist Beast taxes must be raised on all but those that are likely to keep said Socialism in power; the leeches of society. Remember that those that benefit from the robbing of Peter to pay Paul will always vote for Paul.  

 

# 11 - If the government forced me to part with an additional $1k a year I would be very unhappy. It is legalized robbery to tax one's income. It is equal to forced labor. And what you choose to spend your money and free time on is YOUR business, not mine. If you think the best thing to do with your money is to buy gold leafed toilet paper then I think you should knock yourself out. It is no business of mine. I should have no say over how many houses, cars, exotic pets or silver bars line your driveway. So place that in your Funk & Wagnall.

 

 

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#15) On November 08, 2009 at 10:03 AM, themanwon (< 20) wrote:

Catolismymotor - as Sean Hannity always say. Your a Great American my friend.

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#16) On November 08, 2009 at 11:10 AM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

According to my Periodical:

The advent of writing (Mesopotamia 3500-3000 B.C) enabled civilization to create a permanent record of the past for the benefit of future generations.

The irony is that even with the advent of writing, civilization continues to repeat history, never truly advancing.  What civilization is really great at is being distracted from remembering history.  So we continue to make the same egregious errors in cycles. 

Example:  The American Revolution, about 235 years past, and the Nazi attrocities a little over 60 years old Americans (and the world) have forgotten why that revolution happened, why the world flocked to this country and why it was a shining gem in the world of oppressed, "managed" societies around the globe.  The world has fogotten what happens when the Mussolinis and Hitler-esque ideagogues introduce their visions of grandeur, sweeping world-wide changes that will surely benefit society.  It is becoming once again the very thing that the Revolutionaries despised and the world is starting to deny historical events and our "leaders" are beginning to even praise the Maos, Hitlers and Lenins of our age.

Read the Constitution, read about the revolution, read the wisdom of our Forefathers.  They would have been staging another revolution for years, seeing how we have let America - the home of the free and the brave become American - the home of the government-enslaved (taxes, dictatorial laws and intervention, etc.) and the conformists.

In the very same text from Periodical:

"A managerial class - priests or overlords - directed the labor of the majority of the people, who may have been enslaved by conquest.  The priests, who had to explain why the gods had chosen some men to be their slaves, also collected huge quantities of grain and other food from the populace as offerings to the deity.  With this wealth, the priests were able to employ artists, architects, carpenters, cloth-makers, and others with the special skills who worked full-time to assure the divine pleasure."

Does any of this, put into modern context, sound familiar to anyone?

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#17) On November 08, 2009 at 2:27 PM, selfdestruct2 (34.14) wrote:

vrpirata, Doc's have every right to be highly paid for the difficult job that most of them do quite well.

cato, creepy chick could be a great person. Maybe she's uncomfortable and has a hard time connecting with others....like some bloggers (your's truly) :-b  

UL, we are actually racing towards socialism, thanks to His Majesty!

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#18) On November 08, 2009 at 2:31 PM, selfdestruct2 (34.14) wrote:

PROSE, one big Rec for you

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#19) On November 08, 2009 at 3:32 PM, alasker (< 20) wrote:

Having talked to my fiscally liberal friends they are happy that everyone will have healthcare. Everything was Bush's and Karl Rove's fault even though its the 2 houses of congress who write the budget bills- not the president.

The house bill does not kick in until after the 2012 elections. My quick reading of the summary is if you make 50K a year as a family- lets say 35K net after your federal and state taxes- and are forced to buy a 15K health care plan when you could have found better alternative like catastrophic insurance- how is that good? Your 50K just became 20K before paying for housing, food, a car, 401k-  

Lets not forget that is the beginning. Once the door is open how many add on and revisions will start between now and 2013-2018? how are small businesses going to afford healthcare- or if they drop it- how are american going to afford out of pocket- most of america is living day to day as it is. States will have unfunded mandates in this policy and be deeper in the red, i would imagine a number of employers will drop healthcare as a benefit or just close their doors

then again my friends say i'm too pessimistic- I should be celebrating a victory for the country. change you can believe it. My friends tell me scandanavia has free healthcare so we are just catching up with them. 

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#20) On November 08, 2009 at 4:50 PM, blake303 (29.30) wrote:

Wow. The nuts are out in force. Hopefully lobotomies are covered in the bill. 

prose976 - Before you condemn others for failing to understand the past, practice what you preach. Hating Obama does not justify your attempts to negate his religious beliefs or ignorantly labeling him a communist. You are trying to amend history and present with your own beliefs. Providing health insurance to your fellow Americans is not communism, it is ethical and frankly, Christ-like. If any portion of the economy should be socialized, it is the health insurance industry, but the bill is hardly an attempt at that.

"No matter how you slice it, this country was founded with Christian principals, a Christian God, by Godly men who were not afraid to defer to God in their decisions and lives."

You misrepresent the forefathers. While some were certainly Christian, many were adamantly opposed to Christianity, if not all forms of religion. 

"When the Christian God is humbly worshipped and given the highest place in schools, government and public places and decision-making, then everything else will fall into place."

Please reread the Constitution as well. You missed a few major points. I'm pretty sure the country will be far better off when people stop taking contradictory fairy tales and bronze age moral codes so seriously. 

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#21) On November 08, 2009 at 5:13 PM, walt373 (99.83) wrote:

How will this affect healthcare stocks tomorrow? I am guessing insurance stocks like UNH, WLP will take a big hit, but what about others like JNJ, NVS, SYK?

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#22) On November 08, 2009 at 5:50 PM, ozzfan1317 (82.22) wrote:

I only read parts of the comments but for everyone convinced this is some secret socialist takeover I want you to know China and Japan would happily hire you if you would rather work in those countrys.

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#23) On November 08, 2009 at 6:14 PM, soycapital (< 20) wrote:

Yep, hiring an inefficient middle man to do something you are too lazy to do yourself is exactly what being an American is all about. I couldn't agree more.

Very good point David and my thoughts exactly. Let the govt. do it right? Yeah right? 

 

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#24) On November 08, 2009 at 6:37 PM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

ozzfan1317,

That's exactly what they said in Germany...C'mon...we have a real neat brown uniform for you.  You salute like this.   The goose step...it's all about unity.  And those books we're burning...they're just propaganda.  Our government professionals are writing the REAL history and literature for us all as we sing high praises to our new leadership and his benevolent appointees.

I hear Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has some openings for all the imebeciles who are just positive that the Holocaust was a myth.

Foon on!

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#25) On November 08, 2009 at 6:58 PM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

That's right...Foon on!....er, I meant to type Fool on!

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#26) On November 08, 2009 at 7:09 PM, lucas1985 (< 20) wrote:

@prose976,
"How about we already have a communist in the oval office"
Not even wrong. Barack Obama is a centrist, pro-establishment Democrat. If Obama were an European politician, he would hardly be admitted into leftist parties and would have to enrol in center-right parties.

"It is the result of immorality and Godlessness.  While our constitution does provide for the separation of church and state, let's not confuse this with the seperation of God and Country.  No matter how you slice it, this country was founded with Christian principals, a Christian God, by Godly men who were not afraid to defer to God in their decisions and lives."
Can you provide scholarly references to support this outrageous rewriting of history? I'm afraid you can't.

"Obama is a Godless man"
Yeah. As everyone knows, atheists are the cause of all of the world ills.

@blake303,
"Wow. The nuts are out in force. Hopefully lobotomies are covered in the bill."
LOL. I'm sure the hate mongers are already trying to mobilize the nuts/teabaggers.

@soycapital,
"Let the govt. do it right? Yeah right?"
How can other governments in developed countries provide quality healthcare for everyone at much lower costs without rationing* and denying care?

*Rationing, in the strictest sense of the word, occurs in every system because the supply of healthcare is not infinite. It's a good/service affected by the laws of supply/demand, it's affected by government policies and a myriad of other factors.

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#27) On November 08, 2009 at 8:15 PM, blake303 (29.30) wrote:

 lucas1985 - I'm sure the hate mongers are already trying to mobilize the nuts/teabaggers.

No doubt. It should not be hard to find some more Medicare recipients willing to protest the government that insures them while misusing the term socialism.

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#28) On November 08, 2009 at 8:33 PM, sledjockey (< 20) wrote:

I love how no one has come to the realization that our health care industry can NOT operate on Medicare/Medicaid pay rates. The regulation of payment rates and forced insurance negotiations would force most providers out of business.

I guess no one has looked at Canada's system, nor many of the other "civilized" country's systems to see how well they are working. The average take home pay (from links off the DOL websites) for providers right out of school is around $35k. That REALLY seems like a great rate of pay for someone that paid around .5 mill on an education.

Hopefully, health food stores and farm supply stores are going to continue providing service. There won't be enough licenses providers left to do it after Congress is done with "fixing our health care."

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#29) On November 08, 2009 at 10:14 PM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

lucas1985 you are confusing religion with Godly morality.  Atheism is actually an acknowledgement that God does indeed exist in order to deny (at the same time) that there is no God.

Your indoctrination to the new world order and thought is evident in your response.  Real history is being left for forgotten and a new history is being jammed down our throats by the government subsidized/controlled media, hollywood, teachers and professors who's curriculum is mandated by our government.

DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE WORDS?

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which implel them to the seperation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

it goes on...

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED, - THAT WHENEVER ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT BECOMES DESTRUCTIVE OF THESE ENDS, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT...

The first two sentences of the Declaration of Independence, ratified by our Founding Fathers refer to God and Creator and places God and Creator in context as the highest entity (above nature - of which men are part), that without God, we are not entitled to or endowed with anything.  Does that document fit into your definition of scholarly reference?

With a little reading into the lives of each of our Founding Fathers you will find bountiful references to God, morality, Divinity, Christ etc.  Read the biographies of each of these men and you will find your historical references.

I guess I shouldn't have declared that Obama is a Godless man, since we all have a God.  Obama is ashamed of the Christian God and makes that very clear.  He even denounced "his church" when he found out "shockingly" that his association with his reverend and close friend was not going to be good for his candidacy.

Obama surrounds himself with socialists and self-declared communists.  He even goes as far as appointing them to high offices in his administration.  He is a communist.

Humans, like nature thrive on competition and reward for creative accomplishment.  When competition is watered down and everything is artificially equalized by central governments and tyrranical powers, then competition does not thrive...thus humanitymay survive but it does not flourish.

Other governments and societies have not guarded the freedoms and liberties of their People in the manners under which the U.S.A. was founded and has thrived upon.  Now that socialism and communism are once again en vogue, that does not justify turning the last bastion of human potential into just  another conformist component that is the bland soup of the EU/New World Order.

Fool On!

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#30) On November 08, 2009 at 10:30 PM, lucas1985 (< 20) wrote:

@sledjockey,
"The average take home pay (from links off the DOL websites) for providers right out of school is around $35k. That REALLY seems like a great rate of pay for someone that paid around .5 mill on an education."
If the ROI of medical education is a problem then try to reduce the costs.

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#31) On November 08, 2009 at 10:33 PM, whereaminow (30.78) wrote:

It's interesting.

The Left wants socialism, but gets fascism and still celebrates when they win.

The Right wants liberty, but gets fascism and still celebrates when they win.

They both end up with fascism and bicker amongst themselves about the impending doom brought about by the other side's ideology.

David in Qatar

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#32) On November 08, 2009 at 11:29 PM, catoismymotor (< 20) wrote:

#31 - Fascism I suppose is what you get from either party when you sell liberty for security.

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#33) On November 09, 2009 at 12:25 AM, lucas1985 (< 20) wrote:

@whereaminow,
"The Left wants socialism, but gets fascism and still celebrates when they win."
So, your bold claims are the following:
1- The Left is a homogeneous group of people with basically the same core ideas. Everybody knows that labour, LGBT rights activists, civil rights activists, women rights activists, environmentalists, liberals, progressives and socialists are all the same.
2- The Left unanimously wants socialism. What a joke.
3- The overwhelming majority of leftists are celebrating the passage of this bill. This ignores the fact that some lefties are angry thanks to a watered down bill.
4- Left-wing policies invariably bring fascism. The meme of "liberal fascism" is now a classic talking point of conservatives.

@prose976,
"lucas1985 you are confusing religion with Godly morality."
What are you trying to say? Do you think that without a God there's no moral?

"Atheism is actually an acknowledgement that God does indeed exist in order to deny (at the same time) that there is no God."
My irony meter is now broken. Do you know that:
- atheism is older than Christianity?
- atheists hold a variety of positions?

"Your indoctrination to the new world order and thought is evident in your response."
The fact that you bring concerns of a new world order indicates that your grasp of logic and facts is weak.

"DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE WORDS?
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which implel them to the seperation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
it goes on...
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED, - THAT WHENEVER ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT BECOMES DESTRUCTIVE OF THESE ENDS, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT...
The first two sentences of the Declaration of Independence, ratified by our Founding Fathers refer to God and Creator and places God and Creator in context as the highest entity (above nature - of which men are part), that without God, we are not entitled to or endowed with anything."

Hmmmm
"What about the Declaration of Independence?
We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.
The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural."


"With a little reading into the lives of each of our Founding Fathers you will find bountiful references to God, morality, Divinity, Christ etc.  Read the biographies of each of these men and you will find your historical references."
Yeah. America's Founding Fathers were deeply involved with ideas of the Enlightenment and sceptics of the supernatural, holy scriptures and organized religion.

"since we all have a God"
Don't speak for me. I don't have a God.

"Obama is ashamed of the Christian God and makes that very clear."
Where's the evidence?

"Obama surrounds himself with socialists and self-declared communists.  He even goes as far as appointing them to high offices in his administration.  He is a communist"
More unsupported assertions. The American far right calls you a communist if you don't support its extremist agenda.

"Other governments and societies have not guarded the freedoms and liberties of their People in the manners under which the U.S.A. was founded and has thrived upon.  Now that socialism and communism are once again en vogue, that does not justify turning the last bastion of human potential into just  another conformist component that is the bland soup of the EU/New World Order."
According to a number of surveys, empirical studies and scholarly research, there's a sizeable number of countries which are freer than the USA. The USA isn't the paradise of freedom.

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#34) On November 09, 2009 at 2:20 AM, prose976 (< 20) wrote:

I'm sorry to hear that you have no God.  Try this:  http://leestrobel.com/

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#35) On November 09, 2009 at 2:46 AM, lucas1985 (< 20) wrote:

@prose976,
"I'm sorry to hear that you have no God"
- I have a happy and plentiful life without God.
- The existence or inexistence of God won't change anything in my life.
- I don't need a God to tell me what's right and what's wrong.
- I prefer to explore the world using logic, reason and observation in place of metaphysical dogma.
- The Holy Scriptures are not reliable.

"Try this:  http://leestrobel.com/"
Let's see
"Lee Patrick Strobel (born January 25, 1952 in Arlington Heights, Illinois) is a writer, Creationist and Christian apologist and a former journalist and megachurch pastor."
Megachurch pastor and creationist (i.e., anti-science). What a nice combination.

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#36) On November 09, 2009 at 8:25 AM, catoismymotor (< 20) wrote:

He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
-- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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#37) On November 09, 2009 at 9:44 AM, lemoneater (78.44) wrote:

Lucas1985, I found your statement that atheism was older than Christianity very interesting. I will agree that atheistic principles have been around a very long time. Before human history began there was a rebellion in heaven. Lucifer didn't see what was so special about God so he made his plans: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.(Isaiah 14:13-14) The first  human application of practical atheism was Adam and Eve's eating the forbidden fruit in the garden. At that point in human experience Lucifer didn't say that God didn't exist, since Adam and Eve had the empirical evidence of their own senses. They had walked and talked with God. But Lucifer convinced them of God's irrelevance. God didn't really mean for you to obey him. You can do want you want. You won't die. Just because a belief system is ancient doesn't mean that it is good or true.

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#38) On November 18, 2009 at 3:02 PM, blake303 (29.30) wrote:

The Onion outs Prose976, or should I say Kyle Mortensen:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

 

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