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My possible second residence. Does anybody know anything about Andorra?



July 27, 2009 – Comments (7)

I say second residence, but it might wind up being my first residence.


The Link


Two things caught my eye here...

"Of the 64,403 people that inhabit this alpine tax refuge, fewer than one hundred 0.4% of the total population - work for the government."

"Andorra is cosmopolitan. More than two thirds of all residents are wealthy, self-made foreigners, most of who moved to Andorra because they were fed up with government red tape and destructive bureaucracy. The adult literacy rate is 100%."

I'm wary of buying the report on the internet from source I don't know, so I will do my research the hard way, but if anybody has any input on Andorra, I'd be happy to hear it.


This country seems to be a perfect example of "less government"!

7 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On July 27, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Donnernv (< 20) wrote:


 Andorra requires 25 years of residency for citizenship.  Therefore the USA will tax you on all world-wide income until 2034, as if you lived in Omaha.

 Bummer.  Looks like a great country.



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#2) On July 28, 2009 at 12:16 AM, ChrisGraley (28.61) wrote:

Ahh that's the point! This is simply residency and not citizenship!

I think I already have citizenship lined up. ;)

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#3) On July 28, 2009 at 1:14 AM, rofgile (99.46) wrote:

How much money are you spending to leave the US vs what you might have lost presumably through taxes staying in the US?

Will you lose opportunities for business and meeting possible contacts with leaving the US?

Will you lose potentially important health services by moving to whatever country you choose?

These would seem to be hidden costs in your plan.


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#4) On July 28, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Donnernv (< 20) wrote:


It's pretty straightforward for us old guys.  To become a citizen of St. Kitts will cost you approx. $350K for a residence (probably a lot more for what you really like) and $50-100K in fees, legal, other frictional costs.

Then the USA can't get you except for income earned in the USA.  May be non-trivial.  Moreover, you have to mark-to-market every asset you own and pay cap gains taxes as if you had sold them, even if you didn't.  There is an exemption of the first $600K of gains.

I know it seems like a lot, but for some of us, it's worth it to be free, especially if the talk of "tax on assets" arises.  Not a pretty scenario, but our government has made a real mess of our economy.

Some of us can't take it.  Particularly since I'll be paying for this, not most people.

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#5) On July 28, 2009 at 2:32 AM, ChrisGraley (28.61) wrote:

I'm not leaving due to taxes.

I'm leaving because the government and economy is fundamentally broken and is past the point of repair.

I'm leaving because when I buy a cheeseburger, both the government and corporate america know about it.

I'm leaving because as a consumer I'm the lowest rung on the totem pole.

I'm leaving because my government is bribing the voting public with their own money and resulting in my taxation without representation.

I'm leaving because our politicians have a systematic plan to get rich off of the voters by making them fat, dumb, and happy and therefore docile.

I'm leaving because about every 200 years, the greatest empire of the time crumbles because of corruption of the politicians and a citizenship that demands a better and better lifestyle while making less of a contribution to society.

Economically, I'll be taking a very huge short term loss. It's a loss that may take me a very long time to recover from. I'll be paying for my own health care, even though I'll be living in countries that have better health care than we have right now.

What I'm leaving for the most, is to have choices. I have no problem with paying every dime of taxes that I owe when I leave, but I do have a problem with a country that says they still own me to any extent even after I renounce citizenship.

To predict the future of our country, I only have to understand the  momentum going forward and the possibility of reversing the situation if that momentum was zero today. The momentum has accelerated every year since the late 70's. Even if we stopped spending tomorrow, we still have $99 trillion dollars of debt and unfunded commitments that we can't possibly pay. I'm not willing to have the next generation of my family have the burdeon of my debts.

I have thought about this a ton. In fact I've thought about it for the last 20 years. The biggest reason that I haven't made the move earlier, was because I didn't think the government would let me do it easily.

The more I thought about it, the more I realized how afraid this government is that I might leave. It's what they are afraid of the most. They only way they can extend the madness a while longer is to keep their power base. Anybody that wants to think for themself is the enemy.


Now here are the risks that you haven't mentioned.

Once I renounce citizenship, the US can arbitrarily determine that I did it to avoid taxes and ban me from the country forever.

If I visit the US at anytime in 10 years after I leave, the US can justify taxing my worldwide income for the next 10 years. It doesn't matter if I came back for my mother's funeral or to go on vacation.

Why am I leaving? I hold my own truths to be self evident.

Don't tell me I'm free if I'm not.



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#6) On July 28, 2009 at 4:38 AM, whereaminow (< 20) wrote:

A million recs for Comment #5.  THAT was a Manifesto!


You are a man after my own heart.  I have hesitated to say much on previous posts because I didn't know how serious you are.  I have lived overseas for most of my adult life, avoiding taxation and the Police State as much as I can.  I see the horrible path this world is on because Americans do not hold their government accountable.  They listen to fools promising everything for free.  They don't even care that they are stealing.  They feel entitled.  "You have it so I should have it."  They are rent seekers and whores of the highest order.  They exist in both parties.  "The Middle East has oil and we don't. It's too expensive and we don't want to pay for it.  Let's take it from them. We are a mighty nation."  Chicken hawks and whores, all of them.

I have been looking at ways to go completely anonymous myself.  I think you should start by upgrading your computer security.  Encrypt your hard drive, get a key exchange email service, and have a separate laptop strictly for banking.  Do not do anything else on this laptop but online banking.  I like Norton 360 for this because you don't have to key in your passwords after the first time - that way you avoid the keystroke logging programs that the FBI has been known to plant on people's computers.  But what you really have to do is get plugged in to the cyber security community.  They move at a pace that far exceeds what the government is capable of.

There is absolutely nothing treasonous about leaving a country that no longer recognizes your right to own the fruits of your labor.  It is, as you said, self evident.

David in Qatar

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#7) On July 28, 2009 at 9:49 PM, ChrisGraley (28.61) wrote:

I'm looking into the 6th flag. "Internet Haven" now. It won't gain too much importance until I leave, but is very important once I'm gone. Also I'm looking at a few interesting options as far as cell phones. I may have created my own 7th flag! LOL

The plan is to have a collection of countries that don't care about my business and set things up so that couldn't find it out if they decided to change their mind.

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