Use access key #2 to skip to page content.

IBDvalueinvestin (98.35)

Stocks crash in last half hour on HealthCare news.



October 21, 2009 – Comments (18)

DJ reports House Democratic leaders are pushing closer to embracing the more robust public health insurance option favored by liberal Democrats, as they sought Wednesday to gauge whether such a plan can win support from a majority of House lawmakers. "I think we're going to be able to," said Rep. Anthony Weiner, (D., N.Y.), a member of the House whip team, when asked if the robust public plan will get majority support. "I think it will ultimately become the law of the land." House Democratic leaders "whipped" support for the broad public option, meaning they polled their members regarding their support, during House votes Wednesday.

18 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On October 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM, averageamerican (< 20) wrote:


It's about time Democrats got in gear ! (the reason they were voted in last November).

It won't hurt my insurance investments, pulled them out months ago. Besides, if I or a close family member lost everything due to an illness, investments would be out of reach anyway.

Options are a good thing!


Report this comment
#2) On October 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM, blake303 (28.65) wrote:

Good for the House, but it had nothing to do with health care.

Report this comment
#3) On October 21, 2009 at 4:43 PM, actuary99 (95.16) wrote:

Sweet! The government is so efficient, this public option sure is a win-win for everyone!

Report this comment
#4) On October 21, 2009 at 4:57 PM, blake303 (28.65) wrote:

It's not good for actuaries. Sorry.

Report this comment
#5) On October 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM, IIcx (< 20) wrote:

Watch the movement of the US Dollar as you trade and you'll see what's been moving the markets.

Report this comment
#6) On October 21, 2009 at 5:06 PM, IBDvalueinvestin (98.35) wrote:

Also the crash in Natural gas from day highs of $5.31 to close at $5.09 caused BEXP, SGY, ATPG to come crashing down from day highs.

Oct. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Natural gas futures declined in New York before a government report tomorrow that will probably show that U.S. supplies rose to a record for a fourth-straight week.

The Energy Department may say that storage levels increased by 21 billion cubic feet last week, according to the median of 18 analyst estimates compiled by Bloomberg. Stockpiles typically rise through the end of October, before they begin to decline as demand for the heating fuel strengthens.

“I would tie this to profit-taking before tomorrow’s storage data,” said Tim Evans, an analyst at Citi Futures Perspective in New York. “There was also pressure on the forward contracts, which have been trading at a substantial premium to the cash market and to the nearby price, so we may be flattening out the curve.”

Natural gas for November delivery fell 6.1 cents, or 1.2 percent, to settle at $5.098 per million British thermal units at 2:49 p.m. on the on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Prices rose as high as $5.318 and dropped as low as $5.07 during today’s session. Contracts covering December and January delivery dropped 14.2 cents and 14.5 cents respectively.

Inventories rose to a record 3.716 trillion cubic feet in the week ended Oct. 9, the Energy Department reported last week. Supplies this fall first reached a record in the week ended Sept. 25.

Futures also fell as the Federal Reserve reported in its Beige Book business survey that reports of improvement in economic activity were classified as “either small or scattered.”

Industrial users trimmed gas consumption by 12 percent in the first seven months of the year amid the worst economic slowdown since the 1930s, according to the Energy Department.

Gas purchases by factories, steel mills and chemical plants account for about 29 percent of total demand in the U.S.

To contact the reporter on this story: Reg Curren in Calgary at

Report this comment
#7) On October 21, 2009 at 5:13 PM, GerstnerUSA (< 20) wrote:

Why would anyone think that this is a good idea?

Where has the govenrment shown that they can run anything and have a better or cheaper solution than the free market can provide?

I assume that any investor that is in favor of a government run healthcare system would also be willing to rely on the government to run their personal investment accounts.  I mean, if you are willing to trust the government to decide what medical decisions are in your best interest, then why invest in stocks, plan on social security to take care of you after retirement.

Report this comment
#8) On October 21, 2009 at 5:21 PM, topsecret09 (85.44) wrote:

  Nobody here has a clue when It comes to the real reason the Democrats want to pass the public option....    The public option which If kept, will not Include any enforcement provisions that keep Illegal aliens from being covered. Once all of the Illegals are covered under the public option,then the next phase will be to get all 20 million or so Amnesty. Once they get the Amnesty,and are also covered for healthcare,the Democrats have an entire new voting block of freshly minted citizens to vote for them and keep them In office for eternity.....  Before you just laugh this off, do some real research,and you will find that this Is no laughing matter....   TS

Report this comment
#9) On October 21, 2009 at 5:51 PM, rofgile (99.53) wrote:


 The US military has the best health insurance in the world.  Guess who provides it?  The US government.

 I don't put private insurers with all the blame for the rising health care costs (though having to create a profit for shareholders doesn't result in cheaper rates), as it is actually the hospitals that drive up costs a lot.  Only large insurers can have enough bargaining power to cut the costs expected from the hospitals, while the smaller ones have to raise rates.

And politically it is not favorable to put the blame on the hospitals, but some does lie there.  

Anways - go public option!  One large, powerful insurance block will drive down prices at the hospitals by its large negociating power and at the same time drive competition with private insurers.  

Small insurers should be sweating their future either way if we do or don't get a public plan.  The public option is nice, because it doesn't make sense for health insurance to be linked to your employment.  What happens when you get sick and can't work anymore?  That's ludicrous.



Report this comment
#10) On October 21, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Sozurmama (< 20) wrote:

Watch the movement of the US Dollar as you trade and you'll see what's been moving the markets.

Word. UUP has finally reached the support that reversed it in 2008. It might take a little bit, but it'll go.

Report this comment
#11) On October 21, 2009 at 6:50 PM, topsecret09 (85.44) wrote:

topsecret09 (32.54) - You are the Alstry of batshit racist immigration policy conspiracy theory. Please do not hijack another thread with your nonsensical rants and copy & paste jobs.        I know.... the real truth always strikes a nerve......  Please give me an example of the non-sensical rants that you talk about....  Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care

Republicans see a backdoor move toward ‘amnesty’

By Stephen Dinan (Contact)

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won’t cover illegal immigrants, but argued that’s all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

He also staked out a position that anyone in the country legally should be covered – a major break with the 1996 welfare reform bill, which limited most federal public assistance programs only to citizens and longtime immigrants.

“Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don’t simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken,” Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. “That’s why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

Mr. Obama added, “If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all.”

Republicans said that amounts to an amnesty, calling it a backdoor effort to make sure current illegal immigrants get health care.

“It is ironic that the president told the American people that illegal immigrants should not be covered by the health care bill, but now just days later he’s talking about letting them in the back door,” said Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee.

“If the American people do not want to provide government health care for illegal immigrants, why would they support giving them citizenship, the highest honor America can bestow?” Mr. Smith said.

But immigrant rights groups see the speech as a signal that Mr. Obama is committed to providing health care coverage for anyone in the United States legally, regardless of their citizenship status.

“It’s the first time I’ve certainly heard, publicly, him talking more about legal immigrants,” said Eric Rodriguez, vice president for research and advocacy at the National Council of La Raza (NCLR). “I think that was certainly positive progress. We were absolutely concerned about not hearing that.”

Report this comment
#12) On October 21, 2009 at 6:58 PM, topsecret09 (85.44) wrote:

#10) O#10) On October 21, 2009 at 6:05 PM, blake303 (94.83) wrote:  That only his opinion matters,and that everyone else should shut up,and just because the thread that we are talking about deals with the health care (public option) please do not talk about it in the context that you are....   TS

Report this comment
#13) On October 21, 2009 at 7:06 PM, vrpirata (< 20) wrote:

I find it funny that people critizices the “inefficiency of the government”. Would you like to have the police or firefighters privatized? For profit health care doesn’t work, same as a for-profit police force wouldn’t.

Some of the worst decisions made by our government can be correlated to the huge amounts of money and lobbying done by Corporation. The continuous intervention of the Government into the market that we complain about today and in previous decades has been in response to lobbying and the “contributions” (I call it bribe) done by Corporations. Therefore, that means that the actual worst decisions were actually directed by our beloved “efficient” private sector in their continuous and short-sighted interest of boosting short term profit at the expense of long term wealth.

Report this comment
#14) On October 21, 2009 at 7:11 PM, vrpirata (< 20) wrote:

Reasons our USA Health Care System is broken:


1. We are one of the countries in the whole world that spend the most (as % of GDP) in health care: Now, in addition to that, healthcare costs are expected to rise by 7% of GDP over the next 40 years – more than twice as fast as other developing nations.

2. Our Health Care System ranks LOW (37) when compare to other countries, and even LOWER (72) in performance:

3. Yet, we are the only western country that doesn’t cover all of our population, and our life expectancy when compare to other countries is also LOWER (24):

4. And it doesn’t stop there. It is ridiculous that most prescriptions that go for hundreds of dollars here in the USA, sell for just few dollars in other countries (without the need for subsidies). We just need to go across the border to realize how ridicules prices we pay. The ratio for some of the most common drugs is as much as 20:1, yes, there are many drug that go for $200 here in the us can be obtain for $10 across the border. Now, I understand that new drugs deserve to be expensive, but it doesn’t make sense for good-old common drugs.

5. High health care bills are one of the main reason people file for bankruptcy: Is that a surprise? The healthcare system we have doesn’t have real competition. It is a for-profit industry that its only motivation is to get as much money as they can from us so they can look good at Wall Street.

Lets go back to basics. Try to think what a true Health Insurance should be? As “middle-man”, they should take only a small % of the money that comes in. However, what they do is to keep as much money as they can for themselves, they are parasites.

6. Have you heard the media criticizing the waiting times at other countries health care systems? Well, I have lived in other countries and I know how misleading such publicity is. I also have friends here in the US that used to live in other countries, all of them agree that our system is bad and how misleading the media can be.

Off course nothing is perfect and surely you can find some people with bad experiences in other countries. However, the MAJORITY have good experiences. Now, if it was true that the majority have long waiting times (which isn’t), what would you rather have, wait longer and have care, or shorter wait and being denied coverage, and end up with a large bill that would force you to sell your house and bankrupt?

Now, a real hard proof of the misleading propaganda and brain washing going on here in the USA, in a worldwide survey FOX News released, it was finally proved that, at almost 60% of customer satisfaction, we rank low when compared to other countries, beating only Canada in the “waiting time” category:,2933,136990,00.html.

A good article showing more actual proofs (statistics) of how bad our system is, and how misleading the media is regarding waiting times:

7. In the US, the average ratio of what a Doctor makes versus what the average patient makes is about 5-to-1, the highest in the whole word. This tells us that we not only have a bad system, but we also our doctors receive too much money when compared to the rest of the world. And the reason why is described next:

8. Our system motivates waste. How you ask? Because our system pay doctors for the amount of services performed, so the more services they performs, the more money they make. This is like handing a blank check to them. In our current system, Doctors don’t have a real motivation to cure us, but to keep us sick so they can collect more money. I find this extremely scary, because whether we like it or not, we all will have to be patients one day, and is scary to think that our doctor might just keep us sick for months, regardless of our pain, just to make more money. This is real, this has happened, and is happening every day.

9. Our individual taxes paid can be as high as 35% (federal), 10.3% (state), and 10.25% (VAT/GST/Sales)  As we can see, most other countries that (definitely) beat our system have from slightly higher to significantly higher taxes, but they spend less as % GDP in health care. My personal opinion is that most people will be willing to trade a little more taxes in exchange for better care (as shown above) and the peace of mind that will not bankrupt our family. A health care system that will not throw us to the street or deny service just because we can pay the bill. If other countries can do it, why we can’t? We are the country that is getting bankrupt, not them.

Now, the average American family with health coverage through employer usually pays close to $3,000/year for the plan. That is already close to 5% of the average income, isn’t that already like paying an extra tax for having health coverage? If we count that as a tax, that would put us right with the top tax paying countries. However, such payment to the private health insurance doesn’t warranty coverage when you really need them, as they are always trying for find ways to deny coverage.

Our deficit is growing, how long will take for our deficit to force us to pay even more taxes? Or are we going to pay our deficit with a hidden tax called Inflation?. Our taxes are already supporting the inefficient-self-interest private corporations behind our health care system. Do we really want to continue our support for them? We need to find ways to save taxes with a health care system that takes less from our GDP and our pockets, that solution is real and is already showing results beyond our borders.

10. Nothing is perfect of course. We surely can find flaws in other health care systems. However, if we could pile up the flaws, our USA health care system has the most (as shown above). We have for decades being debating about improving our health care system, considering other options, and unfortunately being stopped and misguided  by the bad publicity and lobbying from corporate interest. Now, consider this, nobody in this planet envy our health care system, there are no countries that want to follow our lead, they are not debating about reforming their care, it is actually the other way around. Doesn’t that tell you something? Why are we afraid of a change that clearly yields better customer satisfaction for the majority (as shown above), longer life expectancy, lower child mortality, lower cost, etc?

11. A lot of people consider Social Health Care as a failure for America based on the cost of Medicare. However, Medicare is a system that covers people at the worst age, when they really need care. The Health care system in other countries includes healthy young people that help balance the cost.

One of the biggest risks we are about to face is the increasing baby boomers retirees who will soon rely on Medicare for their health needs. We can’t afford to do nothing, we have to control the cost of healthcare.

12. Social Health Care if often connected to Socialism, and therefore, something “bad”. Remember that by that standard we have Police, Firefighters, etc. Are they inefficient just because they are covered by the government? Is really more efficient the private sector, after all the bail-outs they have required? Would you rather have an Enron-like company running the Police department? Well, we do have Enron-like companies running our health care system. My personal opinion is that a good society should use a combination of Socialism and Capitalism, not the extremes.

Yes, we want to protect our Capitalist system and promote entrepreneurs, but at the same time we must protect the weaker from the greed of the stronger. As a society, there is a boundary of where our social responsibility should end and where our competitive capitalism should start. In America, that boundary stands a bit too much in favor of the strong and greedy. The balance is not right, and that is way we are having all of this problems and debates about health care in the first place.

13. Finally, the one thing I always like to ask to people and/or politicians that enjoy criticizing possible solutions is to propose a better alternative, because there is no way we can continue in our current path forever, scaling health care cost, piling debt, and making the rich richer and the poor poorer.  Today we have actual statistics that show a better way, try to beat that.


Conclusion: Our current health care system is broken, is inefficient, unsustainable, and is getting worst. Why? Because the amount of population we don't cover is growing, yet the cost (% GDP) is also growing.

Why other countries can cover everybody, perform better, and spend less than us? Why we can’t?

We are living a lie where a bunch of lobbying is done and money spent to keep us afraid of a change.

The good news is that whether we like it or not, free market forces are trying to bring a balance, that balance is showing as the forces to fight the current inefficient and wastefully healthcare system. Trying to stop a serious change is a way to stop free market forces from bringing balance. They may succeed in the short term, but in the long run, they are going to lose, because our current path in unsustainable. They either adapt or crash.

Steps must be taken to bring us to the same level as other western countries and bring cost under control. The question is, Is the current health care reform enough? It is probably the first step in the right direction. A health reform is the result of free market forces to balance the waste and inefficiency of our current health care system. Report this comment
#15) On October 21, 2009 at 8:32 PM, topsecret09 (85.44) wrote:

#14) On October 21, 2009 at 7:11 PM, vrpirata (< 20) wrote:Reasons our USA Health Care System is broken.........   A lot of  good Information here. We definitely need to change the mechanics on our health care system,but I do not think the BILL needs to contain 1502 pages,and be rushed through CONGRESS without anyone even reading It. We need to step back,take a deep breath and debate the BILL on It's merits. This Is NOT a bi-partisan BILL by any stretch of the Imagination.

Report this comment
#16) On October 21, 2009 at 9:36 PM, devoish (77.59) wrote:


Nice reply.

Topsecret, yes lets wait twenty more years while you think about it.

Where has the govenrment shown that they can run anything and have a better or cheaper solution than the free market can provide

Well, healthcare actually.

Report this comment
#17) On October 21, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Chromantix (90.85) wrote:

#9) On October 21, 2009 at 5:51 PM, rofgile (93.09) wrote:

 The US military has the best health insurance in the world.  Guess who provides it?  The US government.

Health insurance?  Sure: as long as you go to a military hospital.  And military hospitals are amongst the worst in America. I've been in and affiliated with three different services over the last 20 years. The only people who want to be serviced at a military hospital are the soldiers/airman/sailors/Marines who have no other choice. Civilians and contractors won't go to one unless they can't speak the language. If only allowing a single choice is what you call "the best health insurance in the world", you're sadly mistaken.

Report this comment
#18) On October 21, 2009 at 10:20 PM, ozzfan1317 (69.05) wrote:

Well guess what this is what we are offering the poor. I am a vet not saying its the best care in the world but have you seen the cost of insurance? Its better than nothing.

Report this comment

Featured Broker Partners