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FreeMarkets (99.31)

Tax the Rich!

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October 19, 2010 – Comments (13)

There are opposing views to taxing the rich.  The left argues they need to pay their fair share.  Neo-Cons believe in trickle down economics.  Freedom lovers believe any income tax is theft.

But I'm not going to argue which point of view is correct, rather why we're even having this discussion and who is going to win.

First, a very brief history lesson.  America was founded on ridding itself of King George.  In essence, we were a free people who could do what we wanted.  Nearly every young man and woman in America is hoping to get rich, be it by hard work, ingenuity or just hitting the lottery.  

Contrast this with Europe, where they aspire to be well off, but not rich.  Yes their are rich people in Europe, but their are far less of them due to the tax structure.  Ahhh - we've come back to taxes.  In Europe they tax the rich far more aggresively than in America, but why?  The history of Europe, unlike America, is two thousand years long of kings and caesars.  The rich and powerful were not men of ingenuity and marketing, but politicians and rulers.  To a European, RICH = POLITICS.  Essentially the game is rigged against the people.

Something BIG happened over the last few years, the RICH in America got a big handout.  Our bankers saw the greatest transfer of wealth from the middle class to themselves.  Bankers from Goldman Sachs and other large institutions riddle our gov't from the White House, federal regulators, the FED, down to state and city gov'ts.  Pulling on every string possible, they've tried to convince us they are too important to fail - they are the heart of the economy.

My fellow FOOLS, I say to you now that America has it's monarchs and caesars. The American people have seen that being RICH = POLITICS. Essentially the game is rigged against the people.

Some will say their are three paths America will choose: 1) Back to our founding principles 2) Socialism or 3) Monarchy

Those people are already wrong.  America has chosen #2, which inevitably leads to #3.

13 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On October 19, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Melaschasm (85.71) wrote:

A well written blog, but you made one mistake. 

Income taxes have very little effect on those already wealthy.  The primary purpose of high taxes on the 'rich' is to limit the ability of the lower classes to accumulate wealth. 

This is one reason why the super wealthy and old money families tend to support big government tax and spend policies, while the barely wealthy and those working towards becoming wealthy tend to support small government, low tax, low spending policies.

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#2) On October 19, 2010 at 10:43 AM, portefeuille (99.75) wrote:

Yes their are rich people in Europe, but their are far less of them due to the tax structure.



enlarge

(from here)

 

The history of Europe, unlike America, is two thousand years long of kings and caesars.  The rich and powerful were not men of ingenuity and marketing, but politicians and rulers.  To a European, RICH = POLITICS.  Essentially the game is rigged against the people.

utter nonsense.

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#3) On October 19, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Entrepreneur58 (53.81) wrote:

Socialism is sooooooo 20th century.  When the government bailed out the big banks instead of following the law and restructuring them, was that socialism?  I dont' think so. 

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#4) On October 19, 2010 at 10:55 AM, FreeMarkets (99.31) wrote:

#2 - I'm confused by your chart.  It completely supports my statement that there are far less European rich.  The chart shows the USA with 1/2 the population, yet MORE of everything.

The second point you make, stating "utter nonsense", is that Europeans don't like the rich based on their history.  So they tax the rich, or as Melaschasm pointed out- the income.

But if it is utter nonsense, maybe you'd like to help me understand why Europeans like the rich.

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#5) On October 19, 2010 at 11:04 AM, SkepticalOx (99.43) wrote:

#4 It's not "far less". Europe is a mix of developed nations and emerging countries, so it seems about the same from that graph. 

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#6) On October 19, 2010 at 11:09 AM, lctycoon (< 20) wrote:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/where-the-worlds-millionaires-live-the-top-10-countries/19510242/

I see at least two European countries on that list, one of which is friendlier towards the rich than the USA.

Not all European countries are the same.

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#7) On October 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, FreeMarkets (99.31) wrote:

#5 According to the "World Wealth Report" the U.S. has a 50% higher number of multi-millionaires than Europe based on population.  Removing Russia alone from Europe, while reducing the population by 35%, would also remove 25% of Europes HWNI.

#6 - the great majority of Europe's wealth still resides in Germany, France, Italy & Great Britain.  None of them are "friendly" to the rich.  Sure, Switzerland might be friendly to the rich, but Switzerland has somehow managed to take advantage of the chaos in Europe in the past and the Swiss make up far less than 1% of the European population.

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#8) On October 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM, portefeuille (99.75) wrote:

-------------

Global wealth staged a remarkable comeback in 2009

after its steep decline in 2008. AuM increased by 11.5
percent to $111.5 trillion, just shy of the year-end
peak set in 2007.

• North America posted the greatest absolute gain in
wealth at $4.6 trillion, but the largest percentage gain
occurred in Asia-Pacific (ex Japan), where wealth increased
by nearly 22 percent, or $3.1 trillion.

• Europe remained the wealthiest region, with $37.1 trillion
in AuM—or about one-third of the world’s
wealth.

Millionaire households represented less than 1 percent
of all households but owned about 38 percent of
the world’s wealth, up from about 36 percent in 2008.

• The number of millionaire households rose by about
14 percent in 2009, to 11.2 million—about where it
stood at the end of 2007.

• The United States had by far the most millionaire
households (4.7 million), followed by Japan, China, the
United Kingdom, and Germany.

• The highest millionaire densities are in Singapore,
Hong Kong, Switzerland, and the Middle East.
Despite regulatory pressure, offshore wealth grew to
$7.4 trillion in 2009, up from $6.8 trillion in 2008, largely
driven by the market recovery.

-------------

(from here (pdf))

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#9) On October 19, 2010 at 1:44 PM, FreeMarkets (99.31) wrote:

#8 - What's your point? Europe is twice the U.S. population and has about 2% more wealth.

Seriously, state your point because the facts keep supporting mine and I'm unclear if you are in agreement or disagreement.  If disagreement, clarify your position so we can discuss it.  Thanks.

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#10) On October 19, 2010 at 3:53 PM, whereaminow (75.43) wrote:

You can only believe Europeans are wealthier than Americans if you never go to Europe.  Once you've traveled there, examined the prices, and surveyed the standard of living, you realize it's not even close.

Economists attempt to pull the wool over your eyes by estimating the value of benefits provided by government.  They have to really jimmy these stats, since the starting point is so far apart to begin with.  But they have an advantage.  It's assumed by nearly everyone that European government benefits are better (and therefore more valuable) than American government benefits.

(Nevermind how that could actually be possible.  This what happens when crackpots and whores infest your profession. They start giving Nobel Prizes and to people that say government theft makes everyone wealthier.)

But then you go to Europe. You realize the trains are as crowded and dirty as American trains.  You realize they're just as expensive.  You realize the medical care is as bad or worse, and just as expensive as America.  You see with your own eyes that the prices of gasoline, cosmetics, food, etc, etc, is many times higher than America.

You have to be sheltered or stupid to believe that Europe is wealthier than America.  It's not even close. 

David in Qatar 

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#11) On October 19, 2010 at 4:36 PM, leohaas (92.13) wrote:

As a former European myself, I could not resist. Honestly, if I weren't born in a European country (and lived there for over 3 decades), I would not have reacted to this bunch of garbage...

Anyhow, where I am from politicians are NOT rich. Far from it. Politics has noting to do with being rich. Politicians cannot be bought. Contributing to election "campaigns" is illegal. Money is not speech!

FreeMarkets gives us a few false choices. What's new here?

 

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#12) On October 19, 2010 at 8:40 PM, BillyTG (32.09) wrote:

In support of David's comment,

I lived a couple years in Europe. I've also spent over a year traveling around the world. Nowhere else, in my opinion, comes close to the United States.  You might find little countries like Brunei that are fairly nice, or bigger countries like Saudi Arabia which has some nice social programs going.  But nobody else has beautiful wide roads going coast to coast non-stop, airports everywhere, convenience stores and supermarkets open 24/7, big houses, big yards, grass everywhere, lower population density, independent living, mobility.  The US is so large and is so awesome, that yes, it seems ridiculous to me to say that Europeans are richer.

Want a slice of European life where I lived (Northern Italy, which is the wealthy part of Italy)?  Most adults live at home until well into their 20s, and sometimes 30s. A single man with his own nice apartment (me) is kinda special.  If couples are living with their parents, they make sexy time in their cars on the autostrada onramps or in known romance locations.  I've driven along on weekend nights and seen the entire road shoulder packed with rocking cars, shirts and newspapers covering the windows. Groceries are very expensive. Gasoline is very expensive.  Cars are very expensive.  Fast food is very expensive.  Those living in apartments live in very little square footage, what Americans might call "living in a closet."  The Italian government employees I knew had to remain in the same job, or same basic sector, their entire lives to qualify for pensions, that then enable them to continue their mundane lives.  Their system sucks worse than ours! lol

I loved living in Europe and would love to again.  I think they have an ability to enjoy life and friends and food in a way Americans can't understand...but to think they are wealthier or have better benefits than Americans is way off the mark.

 

I agree with FreeMarkets, though, that the system is rigged against the people. Moreso now than ever before.

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#13) On October 21, 2010 at 4:36 PM, mtf00l (46.71) wrote:

First, let me say that I appreciate TMF for allowing the broad diversity of postings to their blog space.

Secondly, thanks to all the Fools who take the time to answer even the most simple of questions especially in our modern age of Google.

Thirdly, for the most part all Fools are tolerant of each other  regardless of statements made here.  That's most awesome.

That said... I have seen several references using the terms "left" and "neo-cons".  What exactly is a "neo-con"?  Presumably a form of conservative. Presumably derogation.  Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with that.  Is there a similar term for liberals?

Lastly, some of you Fools are truly awesome.  My guess is you know who you are.

Thank you.

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