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The ABC's of Climate Change

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June 24, 2012 – Comments (15)

Anything But Co2

  Doesn't mean I was as I have argued elsewhere, that global warming was not a man made event since it started when we were in caves and that mankind has no control over global events like continental plate shifting, sunspots or solar flares, volcanic eruptions or cosmic collisions. -awallejr

Awallejr - who doesn't know what is causing global warming, just that it is warming, and that it is not CO2.

 Since early 1900's to present...no significant warming. Just normal hot and cold cycles. -varchild2008

varchild2008 - who doesn't know it is warming. 

Anything But CO2.

Best wishes,

Steven 

15 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On June 25, 2012 at 9:12 AM, ChrisGraley (29.75) wrote:

CO2 is kinda easy to rule out since a CO2 increase follows warming instead of leading it, which is easy to see on the hockey stick graph and easy to explain since oceans offgas CO2 as it gets warmer.

It's a nice slogan though.

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#2) On June 25, 2012 at 2:41 PM, awallejr (81.55) wrote:

Awallejr - who doesn't know what is causing global warming, just that it is warming, and that it is not CO2

Why don't you read everything I have said in the many threads on this toipic by you instead of picking out one paragraph and then making things up. I don't mind you quoting me but please don't put words in my mouth.

From that same thread where you quoted from I also said this:  

Massive gases trapped in the frozen tundra of Russia and Canada will be released as the warming continues.

And guess what those gases are?  Methane and CO2.  That is going to happen no matter what we do.

I told this story before.  When I was a kid I was with my younger and older brother.  My older brother tells us that the Sun is going to burn out and the Earth destroyed.  My younger brother started to cry and I asked my older brother when will this happen.  He said in a couple billion years.  I responded why are you bothering me with this now and when there is nothing I can do about it anway.

OK Devoish let's say mankind stops deforestation, and eliminates all man made production of Co2.  Is it your argument that that would stop the global warming?  Is it your argument that mankind can somehow force the Earth to stay in some kind of climate stasis?

 

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#3) On June 25, 2012 at 5:11 PM, devoish (98.26) wrote:

ChrisGraley!

Welcome back!

You know better than to believe that because CO2 increases have sometimes followed warming in the past that it also means that CO2 increases can never precede and cause warming.

Now you know better than to spew that type of foolishness to me. 

OK Devoish let's say mankind stops deforestation, and eliminates all man made production of Co2.  Is it your argument that that would stop the global warming?  Is it your argument that mankind can somehow force the Earth to stay in some kind of climate stasis?

 No. Thats why Al Gore and the vast majority of climate scientists were correct 8 years ago and the time to begin actually reducing CO2 in the atmosphere was then.  It was probably important to stop releasing CO2 into the atmosphere in time to stop enough warming to prevent the release of the methane you are (Anything But Co2) worried about. Sadly, ten years ago we knew (if we trusted climate scientists) that warming the planet would create feedbacks like methane releases that would add to and accelerate the warming.

They also told us about the CO2 caused warming increasing the water vapor in theatmosphere and creating additional warming from that impact.

It is good that you accepted that part of what the climate scientists were telling you to be truthful and not part of the overall scam to destroy the economy.

  But all your concerns (Anything But Co2) were insignificant in the face of man made Co2 releases. The scientists kept, and keep telling us that, and they are telling the truth. Not you, and not any other denier.

You can add ice to a pot of boiling water, but if the flame stays lit, the effect of the ice is temporary.

Eventually the water boils out and the pot catches fire. Then you can say the pot is burning and it isn't the flame at all.

Best wishes,

Steven 

 

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#4) On June 25, 2012 at 5:47 PM, awallejr (81.55) wrote:

It is good that you accepted that part of what the climate scientists were telling you to be truthful and not part of the overall scam to destroy the economy.

I told you way in the begining that I never denied global warming was occuring.  I told you it began 11,000 - 14,000 years ago, depending on who you listen to.  I simply told you that mankind didn't cause it, which you were arguing erroneously otherwise, and that we can't stop it just like we can't stop the Sun from burning out.

We can control pollution, however.  But stop with the whole "do it now or we all die" Al Gore argument. 

And are you arguing seriously that 10 years ago we could have stopped global warming from continuing?

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#5) On June 25, 2012 at 7:55 PM, ChrisGraley (29.75) wrote:

Not sometimes followed warming, almost always followed warming, and awallejr is also right that the planet has been warming since the last ice age. Has man contributed to warming? I actually think that answer is yes, and believe it not, but I do think that oil played a role, just not the CO2 answer that you cling to.

We better hope that man continues to contribute as well because the next ice age will come and kill us all if we don't.

I understand that you desperately need it to be CO2 so you can use that as an excuse to use government force to force your will on me. The other side does the same thing to force religous beliefs on me. I've seen the gameplan before.

You cling to 1 unproven cause of warming that requires elvin magic just to make the math work. I can name 10 proven causes. So in the case of anything but CO2, the odds are in my favor and the burden of proof is on you. 

We've been through this battle before and I am happy to do it again if it means that just one person will not believe your foolishness as fact.

It's been a while so I know you probably convinced a few people of this foolishness while I was gone. I am up for the challenge of deprogramming them.

It's sad because I do agree with you on some environmental things. I just think you are too eager to ignore fact for agenda.

So hit me with your best shot (or was this an attack those that don't blindly agree thread?) 

 

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#6) On June 25, 2012 at 8:27 PM, devoish (98.26) wrote:

Not sometimes followed warming, almost always followed warming, 

This time CO2 is preceding the warming. and the concentration  is higher than any time in the last 400,000 years, ice age or not. Like a hockey stick.

Yes. It is desperate, and I am not your fool. 

Honest people are being convinced of CO2 global warming by the record setting heat that Gore warned them about for the climate scientists.

Every day you are losing more people to the evidence around them. I am just helping them notice the truth.

I can name ten causes of warming too.  And I can name CO2 as the one most significant cause of our time. Just like the flame under the water pot can heat the water more than the warming morning sun does.

Same for you awallejr. This time it is Co2 and it is Co2 that is making the climate much warmer than it would be without it. 

Best wishes,

Steven 

 

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#7) On June 25, 2012 at 8:43 PM, whereaminow (20.23) wrote:

Mutha Effin Chris Graley is back in the house!  And he's being the Boss. How have you been brother?

David in Liberty

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#8) On June 25, 2012 at 8:59 PM, devoish (98.26) wrote:

We've been through this battle before and I am happy to do it again if it means that just one person will not believe your foolishness as fact. - Their hero. Seriously Chris, they have heard you and dave and freethinker and fleabag and a host of other bums lie to them for five years. They do not need you to tell them what to think- well fleabagger does, but not the rest of us. "It wasn't warming, it isn't Co2, it is going to be better this way, we couldn't do anything anyhow." Its "sunspots, normal climate variations, volcanoes, cosmic rays, milankovich cycles, scientists are liars, its a liberal plot, etc".

Keep talking babe, tell us all about the ABC's of climate change - Anything But Co2 

Save us all from the evil Steven who stubbornly reminds us that for thirty years climate scientists have accurately predicted the warming we are now feeling because of Co2 and investigated all of your alternative causes because once upon a time those other causes might have been right.

This time around, the significant difference is Co2 dumped into the atmosphere, or as awallejr wants me to call it Co2 pollution.

Best wishes,

Steven 

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#9) On June 25, 2012 at 9:30 PM, awallejr (81.55) wrote:

We better hope that man continues to contribute as well because the next ice age will come and kill us all if we don't.

I read somewhere that said man's activities might have even delayed the next ice age by 500,000 years.  But then that doesn't factor in certain unpredictable intervening forces.

And Devoish I submit that you and your Al Gore friends are being disingenuous.  We want to curb all that fossil fuel burning that is polluting the air.  I am certainly all for pollution control.  But stop using what I submit are "convenient lies" to try to scare people into action saying do it now or die.

I've taken sides with you on other issues.  You don't strike me as a stupid person.  But just stop with the "global warming is going to kill us" threads. Personally  I suspect something else will accomplish that.

Now you didn't answer my question, are you arguing seriously that 10 years ago we could have stopped global warming from continuing? You certainly implied that in #3.

 

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#10) On June 25, 2012 at 10:26 PM, devoish (98.26) wrote:

You asked if we could have put the climate ion some form of "stasis". the answer was no.

Ten years ago we could have stopped the warming we have caused since then.  We could not have stopped the one degree of warming we had already caused. 

 Six thousand years ago, when the world was one degree warmer than it is now, the American agricultural heartland around Nebraska was desert. It suffered a short reprise during the dust- bowl years of the 1930s, when the topsoil blew away and hundreds of thousands of refugees trailed through the dust to an uncertain welcome further west. The effect of one-degree warming, therefore, requires no great feat of imagination. 

 BETWEEN ONE AND TWO DEGREES OF WARMING 


At this level, expected within 40 years, the hot European summer of 2003 will be the annual norm. Anything that could be called a heatwave thereafter will be of Saharan intensity. Even in average years, people will die of heat stress. 

The first symptoms may be minor. A person will feel slightly nauseous, dizzy and irritable. It needn’t be an emergency: an hour or so lying down in a cooler area, sipping water, will cure it. But in Paris, August 2003, there were no cooler areas, especially for elderly people. 

Global warming will not kill all of us, especially not in the USA, we have guns and tanks and stuff and resources. It is going to hurt, and it has hurt already. It will kill many of the worlds people even if it is not in your lifetime. That argument is not disingenuous, it is accurate.

Best wishes,

Steven 

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#11) On June 25, 2012 at 11:25 PM, awallejr (81.55) wrote:

All you are describing are events mankind will have to adapt to. 

It is a FACT that the continental plates are shifting.  It is a FACT that they will continue to shift.  It is a FACT that one day the Pacific Ocean will touch the Gulf of Mexico.  Unless mankind develops Godlike abilities, we can't stop that.

One day the North Atlantic current may stop, leading to the cooling if not freezing of Europe.  Solar Flares will continue.  Volcanic eruptions from Yosemite may occur.  Celestial objects may crash into the Earth.  These are all events beyond man's control, events that can have a dramatic impact on the Earth's climate.

Let's assume the last ice age ended 11,000 years ago.  What caused that Devoish?  It wasn't mankind, we were in caves. So for about 10,800 years something else was causing global warming.  A fact you just wish to ignore.

Is mankind adding to it with deforestation and polluting the air with fossil fuel pollutants?  Probably.  But in the scheme of things whether we do or not won't stop the direction climate has been taking.  Nor will it matter should the many potential intervening events I described above occur.

How mankind adapts to the everchanging environment will depend on them.  There will be suffering. Tsunami's, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions all cause suffering.  That is just the way it will always be. 

But this argument of yours:

Global warming will not kill all of us, especially not in the USA, we have guns and tanks and stuff and resources. It is going to hurt, and it has hurt already. It will kill many of the worlds people even if it is not in your lifetime. That argument is not disingenuous, it is accurate.

Is not an argument.  It is rambling.  I am not arguing that people won't suffer as the planet evolves.  They will. All we can do is minimize the damage through timely adaptation.

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#12) On June 26, 2012 at 9:17 AM, catoismymotor (24.55) wrote:

I'm sorry I caused all that global warming. Too many bean burritos from La Parrilla have doomed us all.

 

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#13) On June 26, 2012 at 7:40 PM, ChrisGraley (29.75) wrote:

I can name ten causes of warming too.  And I can name CO2 as the one most significant cause of our time. Just like the flame under the water pot can heat the water more than the warming morning sun does. 

A scientist would never say that. The reason being is that if you asked them to prove it, they can't. They can give you a hypothesis that is shaky as a bridge in Spokane, but they can't give you proof. BTW I can get about 1000 times more heat from the sun on that same water pot than the biggest flame you can come up with.

This time CO2 is preceding the warming. and the concentration  is higher than any time in the last 400,000 years, ice age or not. Like a hockey stick.

Actually it's higher than it's been in about 15 million years, 14,000 years ago, we were in a 100,000 year ice age. There was no Artic ice cap and very little of an Antartic ice cap back then. Temps averaged about 7.5 degrees farenheight hotter than they do now and ocean levels were 75 to 120 ft higher than they are now. Funny thing is man did not exist at that time and those CO2 levels happened all by themselves. How did all that Carbon get up there? It got hot and the oceans off-gassed it in a cycle that has happened many many times. Why aren't we 7.5 degrees hotter than we are now? Because Carbon isn't the problem. 

No. Thats why Al Gore and the vast majority of climate scientists were correct 8 years ago and the time to begin actually reducing CO2 in the atmosphere was then.  It was probably important to stop releasing CO2 into the atmosphere in time to stop enough warming to prevent the release of the methane you are (Anything But Co2) worried about. Sadly, ten years ago we knew (if we trusted climate scientists) that warming the planet would create feedbacks like methane releases that would add to and accelerate the warming. 

Well if you believe your own math, then that is just a baldface lie. Any CO2 in the atmosphere would take 50 to 75 years to dissapate unless your are saying that the last 8 years were the ones that put us over the edge, and I'd love to see you back that up if you do. 

The fact is that it has to get warmer, it has to get a hell of a lot warmer and then it will get so cold it kills us all. In the extreme heat the effects will be devastaing, but in the extreme cold the effects will be fatal.

I don't think your Carbon trading credits will help either scenario. 

 

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#14) On June 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, ChrisGraley (29.75) wrote:

OH btw HI CATO! :P

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#15) On June 27, 2012 at 12:06 AM, catoismymotor (24.55) wrote:

Hey, CG! It's good to see you on here.

 

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