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TheDumbMoney (58.69)

Why I LOVE Ben Bernanke And YOU Should TOO; Or..., How Things Actually Work!!!

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June 22, 2011 – Comments (34) | RELATED TICKERS: SPY

There is an entire cottage industry that has arisen both on this site, and also on sites like Pragmatic Capitalism, and elsewhere, involving the bashing of Ben Bernanke.  Nothing makes you seem smarter than bashing Helictopter Ben. 

Here's the problem: it's all nonsense. 

In the face of inaction by our sclerotic, inept, dishonest and future-denying political class, in both parties, I would argue that Ben Bernanke and the Fed are the primary reason that life, while not good, is as good as it is, following the crash of 2008/2009.  Let me make a few specific points:

1)  QEII Is Not Truly Ending and There Will be No Horror on July 1, 2011 -- For an excellent though not entirely complete explication of why the "end" of QEII is not really the end, and why it is not, not going to cause a massive increase in interest rates or a massive decline in the stock market, please see here, and here, and here.  These posts also offer a good explanation fo why QE and QEII are largely not responsible for the huge recent upswing in commodities.  The end of QEII is reminding me a lot about Y2K worries.  I generally find that if you invent a good acronym for things, they can sound really scary.  Some of the market softness in the last few weeks has been in anticipation of something that is going to be a non-event.  (Some of the drop reflects deteriorating fundamentals in the economy.)

2)  The fed creating a risk of hyperinflation --  Everytime you hear someone say the Fed is "printing money," take a picture, because you are at that instant having the privilege of listening to someone who is totally illiterate about our monetary system.  Unfortunately, this includes much of the press.  The fed has been expanding the monetary BASE (in that sense it is printing money), in the form of excess reserves, which does not necessarily translate to greater M2 (or any other kind of) money supply.  See here.  Moreover, see the same spot for how the Fed could control inflation if it did start to occur.  The post in that link is semi-illiterate, but I asure you you can find many other articles on the web explaining excess reserves and the interest rate that the Fed pays on them.  There are many, many other articles about this on the web as well.

3)  Freaking out about deflation, no..., inflation, no..., deflation, no..., wait, where was I? --  Ah how quickly we forget.  But how quickly we remember.  The months from November 2010 through about May 2011 have been characterized by a FLOOD of worries about severe inflation, and QEII, etc., etc.  See number 2, above, for why that is nonsense.  But what all of these genius market commentators have forgotten is the horror, the worry, the certainty, in May 2010 through August 2010 that we were facing a strong, strong, likelihood of a double dip, and deflation.  Have you forgotten that?  Are you in denial about that?  Here is a brief refresher.  I could post 100 more.  What QEII did was remove the fear of deflation.  To that extent, yes, it caused the markets to rise.  It convinced the markets that the Fed would not allow deflation to set in.  As Ben stated again today (and I am so, so, so sorry I could only find this on the spur-of-the-moment on Zero Hedge), last summer the TIPS market was pricing in a 30% chance of outright deflation.  Do you have any clue how bad that is?  And the Fed did such a good job of turning that around that within months, thousands of bloggers started freaking out about inflation.  The Fed even bought some TIPS, which I hilariously saw one blogger say was a statement by the Fed that it expected inflation and itself was seeking protection.  Oh boy oh boy would I love to play poker against that blogger.  Sign me up. 

4) Distinguishing Double-Dip from Deflation:  Now, predictably, worries about deflation and double-dip are arising again.  Understand that the Fed can, and will, and should do QEIII if it looks like we are entering real deflation.  For a variety of reasons, the Japanese did not properly fight deflation, largely political reasons, unsurprisingly.  Please, if you have not, read Ben Bernanke's 2002 speech regarding deflation at least twice.  As Ben stated then, and as he reiterated today, a sufficiently determined central bank can always stop deflation.  He may not be correct about "always" -- I hate absolute words.  But a central bank can do an awful lot, only some of which he has been called on to do.  What the Fed cannot necessarily do is prevent a double-dip, or a recession (see below, on "handling the economy").  Nor can any human being fully understand all of the dynamics of the U.S. or world economy, which is why people who are crowing about how Bernanke does not know why we are in a soft-patch are morons.  Nobody knows.  Nobody can know.  Gagillions of decisions are involved in that, most of which are not, and cannot be, tracked.  We can only model as best we can, all of us.  Much of it is psychology, and much of it can only be known a year or more after-the-fact, if ever.

5) Ben Bernake Does is Not Responsible for the "Economy":  The poll on today's Fool blogcast or whatever it was about Bernanke's speech perfectly encapsulates another misconception.  The poll was something about how we thought Bernanke was "handling the economy."  Here's what I wanted to respond with:  Handling of the economy is largely the job of the President, and of Congress, and of local governments, and NOT of Bernanke or the Fed.  The Fed's job is:  1) prevent deflation or excesssive inflation; 2)  maintain employment levels.  Ah, but you say, that second one in particular sounds a lot like handling the economy to me.  No, no, no.  This latter half of this is an quixotic mandate that Congress has given the Fed, when in fact, all kinds of Congress's and the President's own policies, decisions, and regulations (not to mention the decisions of local governments), are at least as consequetial if not more so than are Fed actions, in determining the unemployment rate.  Decisions made two decades ago about how to subsidize education or not are partially responsible.  NAFTA is partially responsible.  That's why, when we poll people on Congress, and on the President, we ask if we approve of their "handling of the economy."  Not the Fed.  The Fed creates one PREREQUISITE of a decent economy.  The President and the Congress (and companies, let's not forget those) create or destroy economies.  And frankly, to a certain extent none do, to a certain extent there will always be an ebb and flow between panic and euphoria and back again, ad infinitem.  Market cycles cannot be stopped.

6) Long Term vs. Short Term Deficit -- Ben has also stated that we should NOT cut this year's deficit, but that we should cut the long term deficit, mainly by trimming social security and medicare spending.  The first clause in that sentence drive conservatives nuts.  The second clause in that sentence drives liberals nuts.  So here's a clue:  whenever you manage to say something that drives both conservatives and liberals nuts, and which nobody in Washington, D.C. is doing or listening to, you are 99.99 percent certain to be speaking that absolute gods-honest truth.  In this case, we need to cut long-term spending.  That is 100% true.  Does anyone debate that?  That is what our problems are.  That is what you cannot get any Democrat to admit, because they will not touch an entitlement program, and they positively drool with joy at the prospect of running ads saying that a Republican tried to cut one. 

At the same time, there is not the tiniest shred of evidence that we are in imminent threat of default.  We are simply not.  There is no need to cut PRESENT 2011 or 2012 spending "now."  Additionally, people who say that recent government spending on the stimulus (to the extent it was spending, as opposed to tax cuts, which people also neglect to mention) has harmed the economy are dead, flat wrong.  The whole problem of 2009/2010 was that banks stopped spending and consumers stopped spending.  It was a vicous cycle.  If the government had not spent those tax dollars, there would have been even less spending in the economy, because consumers/taxpayers would not have spent it, they were too scared to spend it.  Even if you had your job, were you to scared to spend a ton of money in November 2009?  I sure as heck was.  If you were not scared to spend, then you were insane.  The government stepped into the spending breach (insufficiently, in my opinion).

Do not conflate you legitimate (VERY legitimate) worries about long-term spending and deficits with worries about today.  That is is the sin of the Republicans.  Huge immediate cuts now, as in 2009, will harm the economy and destroy jobs in the short term.  Period.  The government is spending 100% of that money it is spending (by definition), whereas consumers will not spend 100%.  Period.  Less money spent, less goods bought, fewer jobs.  Or, less money borrowed today, and less money spent today, fewer jobs.  Period. 

Bernanke, a Republican, is 100% right about getting long-term deficits under control.  The threat of long-term deficits is hugely reducing confidence in our recovery, and in America, and is therefore having a real impact on growth and on the economy.

Republicans in Congress understand that social security and medicare are politically UNTOUCHABLE right now (especially after the Paul Ryan medicare debacle), so instead of doing what they honestly know is correct (except for Paul Ryan, who is a man of honor and political courage, though I disagree with his solution) they are instead focusing on immediate cuts.  This satisfies their base (who completely fail to distinguish between long and short-term deficits) and -- BONUS! -- it has the added bonus (and smart Republicans know this -- oh very much so) that if they cut a ton of spending in 2011 and 2012, that will really hurt the economy, now, which will make the President's reelection much less likely, and will hurt Democrats in the Senate as well. 

So they are gambling yours and my jobs on that.  The Democrats are, by contrast, simply trying to punt on everything, which is what Democrats typically do, and hope for the best and that the economy will improve and make this nasty issue that their union and AARP friends are upset about just go away.  Their policy essentially is (fingers in ears): "Meh-meh-meh-meh-meh, I cannot hear you."  Both parties are being irresponsible, but at least the Democrats have not embraced this pernicious insane version of economics that argues, in its essentials, that: 1) spending is somehow not economically valid spending if it is government spending; 2) even though government spending is bad -- as if when the government buys a plane or pays Joe Scmoe to repave a road it does nothing for the economy.  Nutso, people.  Nutso.

7)  Bernanke is not God -- He's not right about everything.  What I'm really hoping thirty people will do is post about his years-ago comments concerning the likely minimal impact of subprime on the economy, because I've really never heard that one before, and I will really appreciate the newsflash.  There are some others as well that I would like to hear about, so please hold forth.  The point is that: 1) QEII was proper; 2) it largely accomplished its goal of making oodles of people more concerned about inflation than about deflation; 3) relatedly, please understand that whenever you posted between 11/2010 and 5/2011 all about how flawed the core CPI was and how misleading it was and how really inflation was much higher, do try to understand that that, metaphorically at least, Ben was laughing at you, and checking another box off of his market-expectations to-do list, because it was another sign he had successfully turned around market psychology, which, in the end, is vastly more important than numbers and statstics; 4) double dip does not necessarily equal deflation; but 5) if signicant deflation expectations (as opposed to double-dip expectations) arise again, then the Fed, and Ben, WILL do a QE3 -- there is no if.  It will happen in that scenario, unless Ron Paul has managed to end the Fed and take us all back to 1910 by the time those expectations arise.

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So there you have it.  An expression of the motto, "Maybe in error, never in doubt."   I may be wrong.  I speak confidently, even sometimes insultingly, but with the full realization I may be wrong.  However, I suspect that I am way more right than the vast amount of trash you see posted throughout the internet, including on many of the blogs here.  If you do disagree with me, and you want to call me and idiot, I fully support that.  Go wild.  Just do it after you have read a few of these links I'm citing to.

34 Comments – Post Your Own

#1) On June 23, 2011 at 12:16 AM, AvianFlu (50.69) wrote:

The most insightful portion of your post was your following comment: "Bernanke is not God -- He's not right about everything."

Alas, I find myself wishing he were right about SOMETHING!

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#2) On June 23, 2011 at 6:22 AM, dbjella (< 20) wrote:

Why was 1910 bad?  

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#3) On June 23, 2011 at 7:23 AM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

The fed has been expanding the monetary BASE (in that sense it is printing money), in the form of excess reserves, which does not necessarily translate to greater M2 (or any other kind of) money supply.

You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Read that sentence again and see if you can find the flaw.

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#4) On June 23, 2011 at 10:10 AM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Thank you for your insightful comments. 

I had a typo: where I wrote "November 2009" I meant "November 2008." 

There is no flaw in that sentence.  If you think there is a flaw, why don't you explain it, so that I can rebut you.

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#5) On June 23, 2011 at 11:01 AM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Another typo, I'm sure there are many more:  in item 6, where I said "2009/2010" I meant 2008/2009.

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#6) On June 23, 2011 at 11:13 AM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

Let's try it this way...

What is the monetary base?

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#7) On June 23, 2011 at 12:17 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

I am entirely uninterested in your smug, semi-rhetorical questions.  If you have a point, make it.

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#8) On June 23, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Melaschasm (88.39) wrote:

Everytime you hear someone say the Fed is "printing money," take a picture, because you are at that instant having the privilege of listening to someone who is totally illiterate about our monetary system.  The fed has been expanding the monetary BASE (in that sense it is printing money)

Other than this contradiction, your discussion of monetary policy is in line with monetary economic theory.  

When you talk about republicans and conservatives your personal biases are blinding you to reality.  Example:  other than Ron Paul republicans are not proposing spending cuts.  Even Paul Ryan's plan does not cut spending, it only slows the rate of growth.

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#9) On June 23, 2011 at 1:23 PM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

My point is that the sentence is an oxymoron.

As great as Bernanke is in your view he can't expand the monetary base (in that sense it is printing money) without increasing the money supply.

That is the whole point of increasing the base to beign with. There is no point to expand the base if it doesn't increase the money supply because that is the exact result he is looking for.

To imply anything else means that you really don't understand or your trying to mislead.

I'm sorry if it's coming off as smug. That wasn't my intention. If you really don't understand what you're saying I shouldn't poke you in the eye for it.

You have always struck me as a pretty intelligent person before and I don't think that you are the type to diliberately mislead either.

I've tried to re-read this a few times before I posted though, and can't find any other intended meaning.

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#10) On June 23, 2011 at 1:25 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

There is no contradiction.  Monetary base is a term relating to, BUT NOT EQUIVALENT TO, the money supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_base

What the Fed has done is expand the monetary base, not significantly expand the monetary supply.  Is the last sentence the problem?  Perhaps I should have said "(in that sense it is printing the potential for money)". 

In any event, the point is clear:   QE2 has not vastly expanded the actual money supply.

Your statement that republicans are not proposing immediate  spending cuts is not correct:  See here for one example:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/06/house-slashes-spending-for-food-safety-nutrition-programs.html

Here is an article about the divide in the Republican party between tea partiers and the rest of the party, whereby many want immediate, instantaneous cuts:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1892/tea-party-republicans-divide-cuts-federal-spending

Republicans have also spoken out again and again and again about the waste of the stimulus, and against further immediate stimulus.  They have made many attempts to argue that we "can't afford" further stimulus this year, while failing to address the long-term structural problems we face.

You are correct that Paul Ryan's budget does not cut as much immediate spending as I portrayed.  Nevertheless, the entire Republican platform in the November 2010 elections was to cut $100 billion in spending immediately, which in my view was an economically illiterate platform.

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#11) On June 23, 2011 at 1:33 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

"There is no point to expand the base if it doesn't increase the money supply because that is the exact result he is looking for."

Increasing the monetary base emphatically does not increase the money supply automatically. 

Here is where the increased monetary base is:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS

QE2 has not resulted in a vast, hyperinflationary increase in the monetary supply.  Has some new money supply been created?  Sure.  Is QEII resulting in anything remotely resembling an increase in the monetary supply that is remotely linear, let alone exponential, to the increase in the monetary base?  No, no, no, no.  A lot of it is expectations. 

My point (and maybe I wasn't clear) is that when people say the Fed is "printing money" they are always implying a huge debasement of the dollar, and they are typically implying an exponential increase in the money supply.  That can happen if the banks immediately lent out all of that money.  But they have not.  The monetary base has largely been sitting in the bank's reserve accounts as excess reserves earning 0.25% interest.

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#12) On June 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

"lent out all of that money" -- change to "lent out that monetary base"

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#13) On June 23, 2011 at 1:39 PM, ElCid16 (93.29) wrote:

I'm guessing that most of you have read this already, and that most of you have your individual opinions of Cullen Roche.  Nonetheless:

http://pragcap.com/the-exploding-u-s-money-supply-myth

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#14) On June 23, 2011 at 1:46 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Thanks, ElCid, 

While Cullen Roche is correct about the exploding money supply myth, he is also a Modern Monetary Theory guy.   I'm not down with MMT, personally.

If I recall, he improperly implies (and used to state openly) that this principle is derived somehow from modern monetary theory.  It is not.  Additionally, unlike what Cullen Roche has at times implied, the fact that we as a country with a fiat/elastic monetary system cannot truly "default" (except by either 1 -- truly printing tons of money and allowing major inflation, or 2 -- if our politicians otherwise vote not to pay our bills) is not derived from MMT, as he implies, but is perfectly compatible with standard monetary theory.

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#15) On June 23, 2011 at 2:29 PM, traderman343 (< 20) wrote:

What do you not like about MMT?  I have been reading pragcap for a long time now and have been really impressed by Mr.Roche's ability to connect the dots between monetary policy and the real economy.  He was one of the few people who understood QE from the very beginning.  Only now is everyone adopting his original view that it would do nothing.  

 MMT is an accurate description of the modern fiat monetary system.  Rejecting it is like saying that the sky is not blue.  The only beef I have with it is that some of them push their policy agenda, but that's not MMT so much as it's their personal opinion of how we can benefit from understanding MMT.   

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#16) On June 23, 2011 at 2:41 PM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

But the reason you increase the monetary base is to get banks to increase lending. The money is created out of thin air. There is more supply. The reason that we aren't in hyperinflation is the same reason that the economy hasn't improved. Banks are not lending. The money doesn't have any velocity, but it does still exist.

Now a lot of that monetary base has also made it out to the stock market, so there has been some effect to the money, but jobs are created by consumer demand not by bank speculation. The liquidity issues are almost as bad as if they left it with the FED.

Now as far as the strength of the dollar goes, QE1 and QE2 have an effect, but we were on the trail to hyperinflation long before both of those happended. Hyperinflation will happen when the rest of the world loses confidence in the dollar. See what's happening to Greece? That will eventually happen to us. We are in a debt spiral that we can't get out of without austerity measures and no politician in his right mind will campaign on austerity. Will QE3 be the trigger? Probably not, but the inevitable will happen.

The key test is when we want to get rid of excess reserves and start to sell Treasuries. Will we have enough buyers? I could see that as a trigger.

 

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#17) On June 23, 2011 at 2:43 PM, applecord (< 20) wrote:

Well written, and I love the points about both sides being to blame and putting politics over the true good of the nation.  I is really sad that, come polling time, I have to vote for the party that I feel is less wrong.

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#18) On June 23, 2011 at 2:47 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Hi traderman343,

What I do not like about MMT would be the topic for a much longer and distinct piece.  :-)  Maybe I'll do it.  Of course I, like Cullen Roche am not actually an economist (ie., someone with a PhD in economics).

1) Many people were saying all along that QE2 would not vastly increase money supply.  I was saying it, though I am a nobody.  Here is someone else:  http://butnowyouknow.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/what-bernanke-means-qe2-will-not-boost-money-supply/  If you do some Google searches you will find many more, all the way back to August 2010.  Now, if all you were reading was PragCap and some of the folks here, then yes, Cullen was one of the few.

2)  Just understand that these two concepts do not derive from MMT.  Or more accurately, certain aspects of MMT overlap perfectly with standard monetary theory.  As I said above, Cullen spouts a ton of MMT, and also implies that you can only believe such things if you believe in MMT.  That is just not true. To review, Cullen's major points: 1) QE2 would not cause hyperinflation; 2) fiat currency issuers can essentially only default in the two ways I specified above, are both equally valid under standard monetary theory.  At least as far as I understand both theories.

3) If rejecting MMT is like saying that the sky is not blue, then understand that the vast, vast majority of the world's economists believe the sky is not blue.  Mr. Roche, while he is or was perhaps the most popular blogger on Seeking Alpha, and while PragCap is very successful, and while I admire him a great deal, does not even hold a PhD in economics. 

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#19) On June 23, 2011 at 2:52 PM, traderman343 (< 20) wrote:

Dumber,

 Thanks for clarifying.  I am still trying to resolve many of my own issues with MMT, but it's certainly an interesting view of the world and from what I can tell there don't appear to be any holes in it.  

 Cullen's not a PhD and personally I think that is a good thing.  I can't think of too many PhD's who really understand markets AND economics.  Cullen is unusual in that regard, but he's not perfect and I think he'd be the first to tell you that.  

 The fact that MMT is not widely accepted does not mean much to me.  People thought that earth was flat for thousands of years.  That doesn't mean MMT is right, but the fact that most people think it is wrong does not mean it is.   

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#20) On June 23, 2011 at 3:08 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

I am not saying that you should accept the establishment view just because it is the establishment view.  I am fully aware of the justifiable antipathy many feel towards so-called experts who are, after all, human, and have made a lot of mistakes. 

That said, I personally feel that many in society have swung way too far in the direction of not trusting experts precisely because they are experts.  That is wrong, too.  We must make an evaluation.  For many people, the first time they started thinking about monetary theory was 2008 or 2009, and if one goes right to PragCap, that is a skewed view, or only part of the argument.  For a long time, Cullen presented his view on MMT as if it was established dogma.

While it is true that sometimes old ideas are bad, it is also true that new ideas often are, too.  For example, the idea in 1977 that we faced an imminent threat of global cooling was a bad new idea at the time.  The idea in 1848 that we should nationalize all of the means of production and that all productivity flows from workers was at the time a bad new idea, though for many it has still not been proven so, despite ample evidence negating it. 

One guy I think who understands both areas is Jeff Miller, the PhD investment manager to whom I provided three links at the top of this piece.  You should take a look at those links.  He sometimes is a bit too casual, and misses some things, but I think he is good. 

Although I speak with conviction, I do not believe I know "The Truth."  In my view, Cullen often does.  He speaks (though less so recently) as if MMT is "The Truth." 

My dad always told me the following:  "When anyone tells you they know The Truth...RUN!" 

That advice, which really means to be generally skeptical, stands one in good stead as against BOTH the idea that the establishment experts are always right, AND against many new ideas that may not turn out to be as correct as they at first seem in the first excited rush when one encounters them.

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#21) On June 23, 2011 at 3:18 PM, whereaminow (70.26) wrote:

traderman343,

I am still trying to resolve many of my own issues with MMT, but it's certainly an interesting view of the world and from what I can tell there don't appear to be any holes in it.

There's a huge hole in it.  There is no theory of exchange (catallactics).  I feel that understanding why exchange happens and how it happens is kind of a big deal, but MMT does not. It also relies heavily on aggregates, which reduce comprehension of what is happening in specific sectors of the economy.  It makes the same positivist methological errors that the Samuelson/Hicks/Robinson Keynesians made, which is amusing because MMTers claim to despise those people.

It does a nice job of following the money, which is why they are more of a school of journalism than a school of economics.  Cullen also has some horribly fallacious ideas about economic history.

MMT is not a modern theory either. It's called Chartalism and was discussed in economic circles as far back as the 1600's.  It was resucitated by a guy named Knapp in his book The State Theory of Money (?) in 1920 (?). 

David in Qatar

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#22) On June 23, 2011 at 5:11 PM, traderman343 (< 20) wrote:

David,

 

That's a really ridiculous comment. Cullen goes into human exchange and interaction in great detail on his site.  Psychology and Minsky's financial instability hypothesis are key components in his work.  He dislikes the Fed for the same reason that someone like Mises would - it distorts the natural pricing mechanism.  You obviously don't read much of his work.  He wrote a great piece here on it:

 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1867524

 MMT is modern in that it was not really applicable until 1971 when the world became truly fiat and state issued money became real.  That's when its revival began.  I am personally surprised that its taken this long to catch on.   

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#23) On June 23, 2011 at 5:26 PM, whereaminow (70.26) wrote:

traderman343,

Cullen goes into human exchange and interaction in great detail on his site.  Psychology and Minsky's financial instability hypothesis are key components in his work.

I'll read your link. Chartalists (Knapp, Innes, etc) did not have a theory of exchange.  If Cullen and others have since developed one, I'll be happy to look at it.

David in Qatar

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#24) On June 23, 2011 at 5:44 PM, whereaminow (70.26) wrote:

traderman343,

Sorry but that paper is not a theory of exchange.  In fact, when Cullen first posted that work on his site, I read it and engaged him in the comments section.  So I'm familiar with his theory on QE and have written several criticisms.  He looks at each maturity and interest rate as having the same impact on the money supply.  At T=0, this is true.  At T=1,2,3, etc, it changes.  His method is crude.

When I talk about a theory of exchange, I am speaking of a theory that explains how prices form as economic laws, not how the Fed distorts prices.  On that, I am in agreement with Cullen, but that's not earth shattering. 

To be honest, and this is a separate topic, I haven't found any MMT insight to be all that novel. 

Monetary sovereignity - You mean the guy with the biggest gun can force you to accept his fake notes?  Who knew?!

Money gets spent into existence - Really?  Who knew that money was created so the gov/bankers can spend it?

Sarcastic, yes.  But c'mon, they act like this is so insightful.  Everyone who isn't a Keynesian already knew this.

David in Qatar

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#25) On June 23, 2011 at 6:32 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

@16 -- Chris Graley:

"The money is created out of thin air."  What the Fed creates is monetary base, not money (supply).  The monetary base is created out of thin air: when the fed buys a Treasury, it creates and deposits the money in institutions'(s) reserve accounts with the Fed. 

"Now a lot of that monetary base has also made it out to the stock market"  -- I do not know of any evidence for that assertion.  What is your evidence for that assertion?  I would be curious to see it.

"Hyperinflation will happen when the rest of the world loses confidence in the dollar. See what's happening to Greece?" -- I have no idea what you are talking about there.  First of all, Greece is a part of the Euro, and is not to my knowledge facing any hyperinflation.  Rather, it is facing deflation because an entity external to it controls its currency.  Second, I respectfully thing the first sentence there is reversed: if there is hyperinflation, the world will lose confidence in the dollar. 

"We are in a debt spiral that we can't get out of without austerity measures..."   In the short term, this is just wrong.  If no austerity measures are ever taken, we are eventually in trouble.   If by sovereign debt spiral you mean that our debts are so high that revenue can never pay for them, I dispute that; the potential both for nice long-term cuts and for eventual revenue increases still exists.

"The key test is when we want to get rid of excess reserves and start to sell Treasuries. Will we have enough buyers? I could see that as a trigger."  -- this statement reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the excess reserves.  The Fed does not ever have to sell them.  The reason QE2 is not truly ending, as the first links in my post show, is that the Fed is continuing to reinvest the proceeds of Treasures as they expire, into new Treasuries, to maintain its so-called "bloated balance sheet."  The corrollary to that, however, is that when the Fed decides to shrink excess reserves, it can simply decide to stop reinvesting the proceeds of maturing Treasuries into new Treasuries, and the excess reserves will shrink over time, as the old Treasuies mature and are paid off.  Additionally, as my prior piece that I link to explains, if banks did start to lend to an extent that created signicant inflation, the Fed could increase the interest rate of 0.25% that it pays on excess reserves (an interest rate it initiated when it started creating these excess reserves), thus providing banks with an alternative income stream that would disincentive them from taking risk by seeking interest on loan proceeds instead (and thus reducing M2).

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#26) On June 23, 2011 at 6:59 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Apropos of my last statements in my last comment to Chris, here is an excellent little note from the Cleveland Fed about the Fed's balance sheet and the shebangdangdealio:

See here: http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/commentary/2010/2010-8.cfm

Note this comment in particular:  "When principal and interest payments are made, there is an equal reduction in bank reserves at the payer’s bank. Thus, the balance sheet is set to wither, but very slowly."

This was all written before QE2, but the same principle applies to QE2.

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#27) On June 23, 2011 at 7:13 PM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

http://butnowyouknow.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/what-bernanke-means-qe2-will-not-boost-money-supply/

I just read this and now I see why you feel that the supply of money has not changed.

The author uses the equation of Quantity x Velocity = Supply.

That equation is wrong and is an extrapolation of the formula for the velocity of money. V = N/M.

This equation means that Velocity = Nominal Transactions or Domestic Product (depending on which equation you are using) divided by the money supply.

The quantity of money is M. M is the money supply. M is the amount of money. M is not Q. M is S. I hope that makes sense. There is nothing in the author's equation that corresponds with N. His equation is broken.

The supply is the amount of money plain and simple. Velocity is very important to that money's effectiveness, but the supply is still there. We pay a big price to take that money back out of existense.

Also if we do manage to actually help the economy at some point, the velocity of money will increase quickly and if we haven't pulled supply you are going to see a huge inflation problem.  If we can't sell enough Treasuries to remove reserves later you are going to see an inflation problem. If we stay right where we're at right now we're going to still see the same stagflation problem.

The die was cast when the money was created. It's not a free lunch. We have to pay a price for that created money.

We can't keep that money in a useless state forever. If we want the economy to recover and we do put that money to work, it automatically increases the velocity. If we don't put the money to work, the economy doesn't recover.

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#28) On June 23, 2011 at 7:27 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

I am not talking about velocity, and I have not mentioned velocity.  The article you are citing is one I casually linked to because I Googled it and I was looking for something that said something substantively similar to what Cullen Roche was saying.  But what I am talking about is not really about velocity.  I haven't even read it.  Nothing I am saying in this post or in these comments depends upon it.  I don't even know what equations he is talking about.  If I were talking about velocity I would be using the MV = PQ equation pf exchange.  You have not replied to my posts 25 or 26.

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#29) On June 23, 2011 at 7:51 PM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

 What the Fed creates is monetary base, not money (supply).

What the Fed creates is money. It can withdrawn out of those accounts and spent.

 I do not know of any evidence for that assertion.  What is your evidence for that assertion?  I would be curious to see it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/business/25nocera.html?em

http://beta2.tbo.com/news/suncoast-news/2009/mar/06/wp-nations-banks-not-lending-stimulus-money-study--ar-113255/

 I have no idea what you are talking about there.  First of all, Greece is a part of the Euro, and is not to my knowledge facing any hyperinflation. 

You may not see it, but that is exactly what they are facing. They have a choice though. They can choose to suffer a depression. They are relying on the charity of other countries to keep them solvent at this point, but that charity will not go on forever. They either suffer a depression or fire up the Drachma machine and leave the Euro.

 In the short term, this is just wrong.  If no austerity measures are ever taken, we are eventually in trouble.   If by sovereign debt spiral you mean that our debts are so high that revenue can never pay for them, I dispute that; the potential both for nice long-term cuts and for eventual revenue increases still exists. 

The debt spiral was started long before this last recession. Remember that our debt comes with interest. We would need both very long term austerity and very long term revenue growth. We have neglected our infrastructure enough that it mandates attention. Our entitlement spending would need cuts that I'm not sure the population will tolerate. Our fate isn't certain, but it's almost certain.

 The Fed does not ever have to sell them.  The reason QE2 is not truly ending, as the first links in my post show, is that the Fed is continuing to reinvest the proceeds of Treasures as they expire, into new Treasuries, to maintain its so-called "bloated balance sheet."  The corrollary to that, however, is that when the Fed decides to shrink excess reserves, it can simply decide to stop reinvesting the proceeds of maturing Treasuries into new Treasuries, and the excess reserves will shrink over time, as the old Treasuies mature and are paid off.  Additionally, as my prior piece that I link to explains, if banks did start to lend to an extent that created signicant inflation, the Fed could increase the interest rate of 0.25% that it pays on excess reserves (an interest rate it initiated when it started creating these excess reserves), thus providing banks with an alternative income stream that would disincentive them from taking risk by seeking interest on loan proceeds instead (and thus reducing M2).

They absolutely have to sell treasuries. They don't get any true proceeds from holding treasuries. The so called proceeds are payments from our government. They forced a debt obligation on our government. If they don't sell Treasuries and rebalance, they have effectively robbed the citizens of the US. Well technically they have already robbed us, but at least we get part of that back. Also what kind of increase do you expect the FED to do during inflation? If inflation is at 10% does the FED pay 10.25%. Where does that money come from? Do we create more money when the velocity of money is higher? That would be a very bad plan. 

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#30) On June 23, 2011 at 8:00 PM, ChrisGraley (31.89) wrote:

"When principal and interest payments are made, there is an equal reduction in bank reserves at the payer’s bank. Thus, the balance sheet is set to wither, but very slowly."

I read the article, but could not find that statement. I think I know where it's going, but would like to read it in context before I respond.

 

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#31) On June 23, 2011 at 9:07 PM, traderman343 (< 20) wrote:

David,

I'd be interested in some works that you recommend regarding this theory of exchange.  As I said before, I am open to other thoughts.

MMT might not be as developed as some other schools of thought, but it is at least built from a rational starting point.  Most other schools of thought are not.   

 

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#32) On June 24, 2011 at 10:32 AM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

Chris, I will respond to 29 and 30 tommorrow, I don't have time today.  Suffice it to say for now I do not think they provide an adequate response to my prior comments 25 and 26 and my original post. 

In response to number 30, the quote from the Cleveland Fed article is quite plainly the two last sentences under the paragraph titled "Removing Policy Accomodation."  Why don't you try using "Ctrl-F" if you are working on a PC.

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#33) On June 25, 2011 at 10:17 AM, whereaminow (70.26) wrote:

traderman343,

If you wish to follow my blogs, I'll be hitting upon some of these topics in the near future. For a detailed look at how our school views the crisis, I recommend Thomas Woods' Meltdown (America's collapse) and Phillip Bagus' Deep Freeze (Iceland's collapse).  For deeper and far more difficult theoretical discussion, Huerta De Soto's Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles or Rothbard's Man, Economy, and State or Mises' Theory of Money and Credit written in the 1920s which includes a discussion of chartalism, along with just about every other theory on the planet. 

Thanks for the interest. 

David in Qatar

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#34) On August 24, 2011 at 5:35 PM, TheDumbMoney (58.69) wrote:

For my records on this subject, this blog post below absolutely tracks what I was saying in June, but is more insightful in that it explains how erroneous fears of hyperinflation led people into perceived inflation hedges:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/08/24/661146/an-important-lesson-from-jackson-hole-2010/

Whoever Spellman is, he has it 100% correct.  Note for the future to see how this plays out.  I think once again the Fed somewhat fears the resumption of our debt-deflationary cycle, based on the last FOMC statement, but I think we are nowhere near as close to that scenario this summer as we were last summer.  I base that on the fact that the TIPS spread is not nearly as low (or wasn't, as of August 4th, when I last checked) this summer as it was last summer.

So I don't think the Fed will act strongly with any new "QE3" measures based just on recessionary concerns, no new asset buying will be announced.  But if we do see anything major from the Fed on Friday it will be accompanied by a statement pointing to deflationary (as opposed to recessionary) concerns.  Look back at this to see if you got it right.

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